spritzer Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Power and volume aren't the same thing and any layman that thinks that is as ignorant as you are. You also seen to have no grasp what gain is and think that an amp with higher gain is somehow more powerful. You also have no idea what clipping is and how it presents. Seriously, go read a fucking book! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadphoneAddict Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) Power and volume aren't the same thing and any layman that thinks that is as ignorant as you are. You also seen to have no grasp what gain is and think that an amp with higher gain is somehow more powerful. You also have no idea what clipping is and how it presents. Seriously, go read a fucking book! No, you are wrong about me, but feel free to make guesses. I know when I'm overdriving an amp or not, and I know gain won't add more power than the amp is capable of offering. Nice straw man argument. Edited October 20, 2011 by HeadphoneAddict Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morphsci Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 ... Nice straw man argument. Also, someone is feeling a bit puffy after their RMAF outing aren't they. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Monkey Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmcmanus Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadphoneAddict Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) Also, someone is feeling a bit puffy after their RMAF outing aren't they. No, I've been off my Paxil since 10/9 due to a drug interaction, and I'm feeling really irritable right now. It chaps my ass when I say (write) something and instead of staying on topic "someone" feels the need to jump in and dissect something trivial and re-direct the conversation elsewhere. I was talking about how I felt the Cavalli and BHSE drive the 007 better than any other amps I've heard, and how Cavalli says it does 1300v P2P but that I thought it was more. Next thing I know I'm getting a lecture on power, telling me it's voltage not power that matters with stats, and that any stat amp can achieve ear splitting levels with the 007. I don't care if it's got more power or more voltage, but said it's got more of whatever it needs to drive the 007 than any other amp I've tried, except the BHSE. And I commented that in my experience that none of those other amps that I listed could achieve ear splitting levels without severe distortion, unlike these two. I didn't use the word "clipping" once, but then I'm told I don't even know what clipping is, or gain, or power, and I don't need that shit right now. So, a whole bunch of crap is being made up about me based on my use of the word power instead of voltage, when in context I was talking about voltage swing. I'd really like the conversation to get back on topic. I initially made a very brief comparison between 009 and LCD-3 in relation to the 007, HE-60, HE-6 and LCD-2; and I made my preference for LCD-3 over 009 known, so I'm sticking with that topic in this thread from this point on if we can. Edited October 20, 2011 by HeadphoneAddict Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmcmanus Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 I don't care if it's got more power or more voltage, but said it's got more of whatever it needs to drive the 007 than any other amp I've tried, except the BHSE. I'm trying to imagine Larry singing the chorus of this song to the Cavalli... I'd really like the conversation to get back on topic. That's probably fair. We're just having a little fun. Don't take it personal. That's what we do here. By the way, I find all of the LCD-3 love to be quite encouraging. Can't wait to hear them myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cetoole Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) I think my ears would probably clip well before the amp approached 1300vpp. Ouch, how loud did you have them playing? Edited October 20, 2011 by cetoole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Monkey Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 ^That's what I don't understand about all this Dark Star stuff. I couldn't listen to that thing at all on the high gain setting. And I'm pretty sure that was with the cans that are supposed to be such beasties to drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadphoneAddict Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 I think my ears would probably clip well before the amp approached 1300vpp. Ouch, how loud did you have them playing? With 007 about as loud as a live jazz performance, for 20 seconds, and that was enough. I enjoyed the bass impact and dynamics that I don't normally experience with them, even at more normal/safe listening levels. The LCD-3 on the Liquid Fire was also superb, with even better impact and visceral punch, although I thought the 007 had more finesse. Neither of these was particularly fatiguing at these volumes, and it was without grain or harshness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFF Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Like I said before, the bass produced by my LCD-2r2 on symphonies is more similar to the bass produced by my full-range Dali speakers and even my Focal studio monitors. It seems to me that it's the SR-009 which aren't conveying the bass all that well, not the LCD-2, Dalis, and Focals. The bass is still pretty good on the SR-009, just not as good. Beyond that, there's something about the tonality of the SR-009 that sounds wrong to me when I listen to certain music like the Mahler symphony I mentioned before. It's not really bad - just a little strange and not what I hear on my speakers and the LCD-2. By the way, I'm using a KGSS with the SR-009. I guess we have to agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvdunhill Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) Larry, have you considered that difference in source output voltage, as well as whether or not SE or balanced inputs were utilized could debunk some of your findings? Edited October 20, 2011 by luvdunhill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aardvark baguette Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 first world problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltron Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 first world problems You're a 99er, aren't you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aardvark baguette Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 average joe here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spritzer Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 It's truly astounding just what little people understand even about the very basics. Larry is comparing based on memory with no regard taken as to the specs of the source, gain of the amp and judging how powerful an amp is based on how loud it plays. I'm sure most will see just how stupid this is. While we do use voltage swing as some arbitrary benchmark for amps it is all but worthless in reality. It says nothing about what's going on in the amp at these voltages (i.e. how it handles the load), it's just the rail voltages (or single rail where that applies like the GES/WES plus many others) minus the natural losses that incur. If this was the sole benchmark then the KGSSHV would rule them all with the +/-500V rails or roughly 1900VP-P. It does but there is much more to it then just that. One of the roots of the KGSSHV design came from an email Kevin sent me some years ago listing transistors he found that would allow the normal KGSS to run at much higher voltages, certainly +/-450V if not higher. That led to a discussion of what is really needed to drive these transducers and the demanding load they present. The main "selling point" of the KGSSHV is that it fixes how the third stage is handled (adds a CCS where the old one uses resistors) which was the main weakness of the old design. The new PSU is also a very worthwhile addition but the extra voltage swing isn't really needed IMO. It does certainly no harm and it moves the normal listening range even further from the limits of the amp. The gain is still the same so to make this amp clip you have to feed it a lot of voltage and say goodbye to any headphones connected to it since they won't survive these voltages. Years ago Kevin asked me what I wanted to see in new designs and my reply was something like this: "More voltage would be nice but above all else we need more power" More power brings better load tolerance so the amp is less of a factor. This is the same direction Stax have been going in for the last 40 years. The SS amps they had 37 years ago used a single rail voltage with resistors for the load and output caps. In 1982 the SRM-1 Mk2 arrives with dual HV rails so it could be fully DC coupled but the resistors are still there. Later they are also replaced and the latest amps all feature improvements to the other stages, same as the KGSSHV. Larry, have you considered that difference in source output voltage, as well as whether or not SE or balanced inputs were utilized could debunk some of your findings? Indeed. Your sig is very fitting now... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBel84 Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) I learn something new every day - life is good ..dB Quote: Originally Posted by FrankCooter " I'm usually perplexed when people talk about "power" in relation to electrostatic headphones and amplifiers. The headphone is a very high impedance load consisting almost exclusively of capacitive reactance. It requires a large voltage swing and enough current in the amplifier output stage to maintain slew rate and frequency response, but it consumes next to no true power no matter how much you "throw" at it. Electrostatic amplifiers are voltage, not power, amps. Conceptually they are more like an ultra high gain preamp rather than a traditional speaker power amp, which unlike a voltage amp, is designed to transfer both current and voltage into a low impedance load. The only signifigant "power" involved in an electrostatic amp is the dissapation of the output devices and their respective loads. Rather than an undefined or mislabeled discussion of an amps output "power", it might be better to discuss the amp in terms of it's ability to drive a load. Driving ability, reduced to basics, is a product of gain(usually about 60dB), output voltage swing (usually about 600Vrms), and output stage current (usually 15-20mA to ensure slew rate at frequencies of interest.) I'm passingly familiar with the designs of both amps, and as far as I know, both easily meet these requirements. Sonic differences between the two amps are the result of different circuit toplogy and have nothing to do with "power" in the standard electrical sense. I'm still very much a novice in this area, so if fi any one wants to correct me I'm all ears. " Edited October 20, 2011 by dBel84 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurubhai Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) Its something I have been wondering for some time & though its the LCD-3 thread, the current discussion gives me the chance to pose these question. 1) How much power(watt/mA) is required for Lambda models, 007 & 009 respectively? 2) What is the power output of currently available DIY/commercial amplifiers ? FWIR, the answer would depend on slew rate of amp apart from the voltage swing & headphone capacitance. So, if someone can explain in those terms it would be even better. Edit: dBel84 posted above while I was typing & while it is related, my questions still stand. Edited October 20, 2011 by gurubhai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aardvark baguette Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 This is real power Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torpedo Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 I love the RLC indicator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopstretch Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 This is real power Needs a headphone jack so you can hook in for a full Thunderfire Belchpants experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spritzer Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 I see dbel has taken the Cavalli course on electrostatics: "I know fuck all about the subject". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadhead Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 He is quoting Frank Cooter.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBel84 Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 I see dbel has taken the Cavalli course on electrostatics: "I know fuck all about the subject". actually that is Frank Cooter if you must , I make no qualms as to having little experience with stats. but your persona is as ever on top form ..dB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvdunhill Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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