Audeze LCD-3

[complin]

My ears also match much more with Tyll's ears, and so I tend to put more faith in his reviews.

Couldn't agree more........and of course not forgetting our own very well respected member of the Stax Mafia ... Birgir . Mind you anyone who can eat putrified shark meat MUST have charisma... well something like that anyway.

Edited November 2, 2011 by complin

[Asr]

Why is it hard to give a truthful review? I see your point for a business like the audio magazines or Jude, but not for normal community members like you and I.

I definitely agree with part of Al's response earlier - there are plenty of folks who want attention/validation. But I disagree on the political pressure and think that has to come into play too - for folks who receive gear on loan from a manufacturer, it's usually in their interest to not say something overly negative (or "truthful"), as that'd diminish chances to continue to receive gear. No company wants bad press after all. It's a symbiotic relationship - good press (and politics) results in continued provision of gear.

Additionally, but a lot less of a factor, are the fact that meets help establish and foster personal relationships with manufacturers, which can lead a reviewer to not want to say something bad.

Btw that Frank I guy seems to really have it in for you still, wtf is his problem. He seriously comes across as a total nutcase. Why does he bother to defend Skylab like he's Skylab's mom?

Edited November 2, 2011 by Asr

[complin]

And I got to say writing reviews is a pain in the ass!

I know what you mean.... I write IT strategy and Business Transformation reports for clients as a living, so striking the right balance while being objective can be really painful at times

[jvlgato]

Couldn't agree more........and of course not forgetting our own very well respected member of the Stax Mafia ... Birgir . Mind you anyone who can eat petrified shark meat MUST have charisma... well something like that anyway.

Birgir is very charismatic, as well, and I had the very good fortune of meeting him in person, too! And I believe that was putrified shark meat, rather than petrified ... but I could be wrong.

[grawk]

I think that people who write truly honest reviews will eventually benefit because they'll start only getting really good gear offered to them for review...

[complin]

for folks who receive gear on loan from a manufacturer, it's usually in their interest to not say something overly negative (or "truthful"), as that'd diminish chances to continue to receive gear. No company wants bad press after all. It's a symbiotic relationship - good press (and politics) results in continued provision of gear.

Additionally, but a lot less of a factor, are the fact that meets help establish and foster personal relationships with manufacturers, which can lead a reviewer to not want to say something bad.

Well I would guess you have to be very careful now even as an individual writing stuff on the WEB because if the manufacturer does not like what you say you could find yourself being sued.............

I know of several cases where magazine reviewers have been sued to stop them publishing negative reviews. In any case if as a reviewer you find some really neagative things about a product you would need to check it out with the manufacturer before going to press.

I'm sure Tyll has to do this all the time. Pointing out the negative points as diplomatically as possible without getting sued!

As I work in the IT Consulting industry companies are getting wise to sites like this and the likes of facebook etc. They are buying software that will collect and analyse data from whats out there to see if their product or brand is being trashed .

Edited November 2, 2011 by complin

[Voltron]

I definitely agree with part of Al's response earlier - there are plenty of folks who want attention/validation. But I disagree on the political pressure and think that has to come into play too - for folks who receive gear on loan from a manufacturer, it's usually in their interest to not say something overly negative (or "truthful"), as that'd diminish chances to continue to receive gear. No company wants bad press after all. It's a symbiotic relationship - good press (and politics) results in continued provision of gear.

Additionally, but a lot less of a factor, are the fact that meets help establish and foster personal relationships with manufacturers, which can lead a reviewer to not want to say something bad.

I was wondering why you thought that we disagreed on that point, but I looked back at what I wrote and see why. I meant to say that random schmucks shouldn't have any political pressure, in contrast to the "professional" reviewer, whether the skylab types or the headphony.com types. I agree with you and think that keeping the pipeline open is a huge incentive to find positive things to say.

BTW, Complin, John was rather polite in his response, but where exactly do you get off correcting him on what he "meant"? Also, a manufacturer cannot sue a random schmuck for posting their opinions or comments about a product on an internet forum.

[Wmcmanus]

I wrote one. http://www.head-fi.o...ns#post_7843639

You got laid once, and it only lasted 25 seconds?

Actually, that was a funny post. I'm just giving you a hard time.

[complin]

Also, a manufacturer cannot sue a random schmuck for posting their opinions or comments about a product on an internet forum.

So we schmucks are insulatied from being sued for such comments? Where do you get this idea from? Depends how strong your comments are!

How come people have been sued for their comments on Facebook and Twitter event though they have tried ti hide behind anonymity?

I've seen comments on here about manufacturers that if they thought it worth their while (cost) could provoke litigation

Edited November 2, 2011 by complin

[jvlgato]

Thanks, Al, I was being polite and trying to give complin the benefit of the doubt. He later backed off a bit and seemed nicer. But this is where newbies really need to back off and get to know the people around here a bit more before being challenging ...

complin - I think Voltron knows a bit about what is permissible by law. Just as I think I know a little bit about how to describe personalities. You probably wouldn't know that, being a newb, but rather than spouting off challenging questions, maybe back off a bit, and get to know who is who around here first, eh?

[morphsci]

I'd love to see you guys write some more critical and technical reviews.

Ok no offense fellas because I don't write reviews either (I don't like that many headphones and they would be more bitch fest than review) but I'm just saying that it's a lot easier to criticize someone than to do it better yourself. Maybe he could be more critical but the bigger issue IMO is the fact that he's one of the only people left on head-fi who writes actual reviews with words about SQ, the rest is mostly POV unboxing porn and rubbish impressions about comfort and looks.

But this is Head-Case and most of us could care less if HF Is full of posts that are the equivalent of putrified shark. Second, one does not have to be able to do something to validly criticize it. For example I can validly state that Tim Tebow absolutely sucked at quarterback in his last game. Do I have to be a better quarterback than Tebow to say that? ....... OK. Not a good example.

[spritzer]

Couldn't agree more........and of course not forgetting our own very well respected member of the Stax Mafia ... Birgir . Mind you anyone who can eat putrified shark meat MUST have charisma... well something like that anyway.

Not so sure about charisma since I mostly scare people. Might have something to do with rather my large.... ehhh.... presence...

[Wmcmanus]

So we schmucks are insulatied from being sued for such comments? Where do you get this idea from? Depends how strong your comments are!

How come people have been sued for their comments on Facebook?

I've seen comments on here about manufacturers that if they thought it worth their while (cost) could provoke litigation

Uh, pretty much not worth arguing about. Ya, sure, anyone can sue anyone for anything. So what's your point?

Seems to me that Al is simply suggesting that it's nearly impossible for a manufacturer to prove a libel/defamation/slander (whatever, who really fucking cares?) case against some random schmuck for a consumer-type of review ("posting their opinions or comments about a product" as he put it) on the internet, whereas professional reviewers would presumably be held to a higher standard of conduct. You can read all about it on any number of blogs concerning the matter.

Oh and he might get this idea for his legal training and many years of experience as a trial lawyer... I think he's got a lot of charisma too. You seem to like people with charisma, so I'm sure you would like Al. On a scale of one to Ballerina Tyll charismatic, he's way past go.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Wmcmanus

[complin]

Thanks, Al, I was being polite and trying to give complin the benefit of the doubt. He later backed off a bit and seemed nicer. But this is where newbies really need to back off and get to know the people around here a bit more before being challenging ...

complin - I think Voltron knows a bit about what is permissible by law. Just as I think I know a little bit about how to describe personalities. You probably wouldn't know that, being a newb, but rather than spouting off challenging questions, maybe back off a bit, and get to know who is who around here first, eh?

I wasn't trying to offend anyone

Here is just one example of what can happen http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/us/01slapp.html

[n3rdling]

I definitely agree with part of Al's response earlier - there are plenty of folks who want attention/validation. But I disagree on the political pressure and think that has to come into play too - for folks who receive gear on loan from a manufacturer, it's usually in their interest to not say something overly negative (or "truthful"), as that'd diminish chances to continue to receive gear. No company wants bad press after all. It's a symbiotic relationship - good press (and politics) results in continued provision of gear.

Additionally, but a lot less of a factor, are the fact that meets help establish and foster personal relationships with manufacturers, which can lead a reviewer to not want to say something bad.

Btw that Frank I guy seems to really have it in for you still, wtf is his problem. He seriously comes across as a total nutcase. Why does he bother to defend Skylab like he's Skylab's mom?

Good points, I've thought the same as well.

I think Frank really is a nutcase. I know he's threatened me and another poster in PM for disagreeing with him on the forums. He comes across like a parent who has no business being on the internet. Btw, hi Frank

[LFF]

I think that people who write truly honest reviews will eventually benefit because they'll start only getting really good gear offered to them for review...

Not true.....

That said, what I do when I don't like something is simply not write anything about it as a review but I will post about in threads unless the manufacturer expects a review be it good or bad. Some of the stuff I have written about wasn't even sent to me by the manufacturers and I still get accused of being a shill. As for Skylab - it says a lot when you love Darth Beyers.

[arnaud]

n3rdling, I felt a bit sorry for you there. At times, I don't get all the hate on HC, but in situations like this, it's simply much more fun to read about islandic culture than see experienced opinions being shot down by newbie fanboys... At first, it would seem like this place is just a Stax mafia refuge where anything non-Stax gets bashed but it's not true, it's also all about putrefied shark food .

[Pars]

I think Frank really is a nutcase.

Ya think?

[dBel84]

petrified of putrified shark seems about the gist of it, not to mention a view of Debbie Harry I had not appreciated in the past. Reading / writing about equipment is all about perspective. I have had a subscription to various HiFi mags for many years, they all end up in the bin except the old "HiFiWorld Classic" pullouts. Personal preference is what it comes down to. Do you need an SR009 + BHSE or LCD3 + Pinnacle , no ; a butte load of HF2 would be enough for most. I like the community, some people will never agree and some will agree most of the time. I really like the LCD3 , perhaps not as much as Tyll likes young carnivores, but then I can bet I enjoy single malts equally..dB

[The Monkey]

n3rdling, I felt a bit sorry for you there. At times, I don't get all the hate on HC,

What hate?

[fishski13]

What hate?

edit: i get warm fuzzys at HC.

Edited November 3, 2011 by fishski13

[purrin]

I'd love to see you guys write some more critical and technical reviews.

That stuff is there - just buried. n3rdling's three sentence comparison between the R10 and LCD3 told us a lot more about those headphones than Skylab's several paragraphs.

... One thing I liked about his review is that he said the LCD-3 was revealing of bad recordings. This is definitely not positive and I think will turn a lot of people off. I already have plenty of revealing headphones and I go to the LCD-2 for warmth.

Andy - I wouldn't worry about that if you are thinking about getting a LCD-3 as alternative headphone to the HD800 so you can just relax. The LCD-3 is actually more laid back because of its smoother treble - better than the LCD-2 in this regard. The tonal balance is the same.

Edited November 3, 2011 by purrin

[LFF]

That stuff is there - just buried. n3rdling's three sentence comparison between the R10 and LCD3 told us a lot more about those headphones than Skylab's several paragraphs.

Agreed.

[HeadphoneAddict]

I hope this is relevant to the current discussion.

When I first started posting reviews on HF four years ago, it really wasn't for attention but simply to try to share my feelings about some of the new gear I'd bought that I was excited about. It seemed that on HF it was expected for people to share their thoughts, and it was fun at first. Later it was to gain access to more gear to try out in my journey towards audio nirvana, and just a little bit for the attention. During that time I found that I'm just not motivated to take the time to fully review something that I didn't like. I did post impressions of gear I didn't like in the various threads if the subject came up, but a full review wasn't warranted (it's a hobby not a job).

I'm not sure we really know what Skylab's motivation for doing reviews is, but we don't have to always assume the worst of someone (attention, sucking up, or kissing butt). Some people like Skylab (and myself) enjoy a wide range of sound signatures, and liking one thing doesn't preclude our liking a different sounding one as well. That can lead to a lot of reviews with a positive slant to the conclusion. Or, like me, Skylab may not like to waste a lot of time fully reviewing something that he didn't like, so fewer of the completed reviews are negative.

I do believe it's important for people to be critical of reviews, and to use their own judgement and experience to guide them. As Asr pointed out, it's ridiculous for some people to to hold out on buying something until the review comes out, and then to entirely base their purchase decision on the review alone. I also think that it's helpful when being critical of some parts of the review to also note the areas where you do agree with the reviewer (if there are any). It motivates the reviewer to try to do a better job, rather than just close their ears and wish you to go away.

When I started out I didn't have a high enough benchmark to compare gear. So when I first bought my Ultrasone HFI-700DVD four years ago I thought things couldn't get any better than that, coming from the Bose Quiet Comfort II. A couple of weeks later the HD600 arrived and they eclipsed the Ultrasone. In that manner I find that one's taste in audio gear matures with experience, after being exposed to a wider variety of gear over time. My tastes eventually matured to phones like HP-1000, K-1000, Omega 2, HE-60, HD800, and more recently the LCD-2 and HE-6/HE-500. Yet there is still room occasionally for "fun phones" like D7000 or HF-2. My journey seems similar to how Skylab went from enjoying Darth Beyers to selling all of them when he got better gear (although I disliked the Darth Beyer from the beginning, and posted as much when I got my first pair). It seems like he's moved on from those early days, but I could be wrong as I have not looked into his current inventory at all.

I also agree that reviews are really hard to do right. I don't think many of my reviews were pretty, as I struggled to bring together into one place what I thought were too many points of consideration to make sense. I admit that I don't have enough technical expertise to be a professional reviewer either. I've just been trying to share my impressions, and by doing it in a different way, usually by adding more comparisons vs other gear that people may already be familiar with. I think it gives people of good frame of reference, and it seemed like more people agreed with my impressions than not. I found that it's much easier to do a comparative review than by simply describing the sound on it's own merits. I admit that's a shortcut that I often take, but sometimes it works. My favorite comparative review was my flagship custom IEM review, but it took me over 2 months to put that together. That's just too much work for something like that.

Because they're such a pain to do, once I was happy with my own gear I cut back a good bit on "reviews". I've been ignoring opportunities to get review samples if it was something I wouldn't buy for myself. Basically, if I don't see a place for it in my own gear inventory I've lost interest in reviewing it. Also, lately I prefer posting impressions of new gear inside their "appreciation threads", instead of posting fresh threads. I think it helps keep the information all in one relevant place, and it doesn't split the attention on the gear across multiple threads. If there is no appreciation or discussion thread then I'm okay with starting one, but with people like Skylab around I feel like I can sit back and enjoy the forums more without the pressure to do a full review.

[complin]

Agreed.

Me too, Its not the quantity of the verbiage but getting across the most important points

Personally i've learnt a lot from the one or two liners you get on HC about comparative performance