Dusty Chalk Posted November 28, 2012 Report Posted November 28, 2012 There are previews on the website, but I don't know how to take waveforms. They sound pretty loud, so I suspect they're guilty as well.
Knuckledragger Posted December 18, 2012 Author Report Posted December 18, 2012 I've been looking for a decent remaster of Dire Straits - Brothers in arms. Here's four versions of the title track. 1985 original: 1996 Mercury remaster: 2000 JVC XRCD: 2008 Japanese SHM: There's also a 2005 20th anniversary SACD and a 2005 DVD-A in 5.1, both of which I lack.
VPI Posted December 18, 2012 Report Posted December 18, 2012 I should send you my FIM Ultimate Disc Collectors 32bit Version. Crazy expensive but I can't hear much difference if there is any at all. http://fimftp.ehost-services163.com/fim/others/fimnew032011.pdf
Dusty Chalk Posted December 18, 2012 Report Posted December 18, 2012 "decent" -- what's indecent about them? Brothers in Arms was considered the standard by audiophiles for a long time.
Knuckledragger Posted December 18, 2012 Author Report Posted December 18, 2012 Decent as in not brickwalled all to hell. The whole point of this thread is avoiding modern remasters that ruin classic albums.
Dusty Chalk Posted December 18, 2012 Report Posted December 18, 2012 The only one that looks brickwalled is the 2000 JVC XRCD. Am I wrong?
Knuckledragger Posted December 18, 2012 Author Report Posted December 18, 2012 Yes, they all look pretty good. I was listening to the Japanese SHM version earlier and it sounded great. TBH, even the XRCD version is not horrific by today's standards. /damning with faint praise. Looking back in this thread, I see I mentioned 3 releases I never around to analyzing. After I other work done today, I'm going to see if I can dig them up: Rolling Stones - Tattoo You (original CD and 2009 UMG remaster) Stevie Wonder - Talking Book (original CD and 2000 remaster) Between Interval - Radio Silence (2004 original and 2007 remaster)
TMoney Posted December 18, 2012 Report Posted December 18, 2012 This is what the waveform of the redbook layer of the my copy of the 2005 SACD of BiA looks like using Foobar's Waveform plugin. Pretty similar to those already posted above Anecdotally, I'd say its a little on the bright side for my liking.
Torpedo Posted December 18, 2012 Report Posted December 18, 2012 Could you please install the DR plugin and calculate the DR values for the tracks on that version? It's not on Pleasurize anymore, but an independent developer
TMoney Posted December 18, 2012 Report Posted December 18, 2012 (edited) Could you please install the DR plugin and calculate the DR values for the tracks on that version? It's not on Pleasurize anymore, but an independent developer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed: Dire Straits / Brothers In Arms - 20th Anniversary Edition -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR10 -3.70 dB -15.54 dB 5:11 01-So Far Away DR8 -4.20 dB -15.65 dB 8:26 02-Money For Nothing DR6 -5.27 dB -14.21 dB 4:13 03-Walk Of Life DR9 -4.68 dB -15.86 dB 6:34 04-Your Latest Trick DR11 -6.11 dB -19.48 dB 8:31 05-Why Worry? DR10 -5.42 dB -18.71 dB 6:57 06-Ride Across The River DR9 -4.48 dB -17.25 dB 4:41 07-The Man's Too Strong DR10 -4.40 dB -15.91 dB 3:40 08-One World DR8 -5.43 dB -17.08 dB 6:58 09-Brothers In Arms -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 9 Official DR value: DR9 ================================================================================ In the early days of SACD the masters really weren't all that great. A DR9 kind of stinks for a band like Dire Straits, though its not too bad to listen to. The later Japanese SHM-SACDs of the Dire Straits catalog measure a lot better and average around DR12 to DR13 which is much more listenable. I don't think they've done an SHM-SACD for BiA yet though... I've got the self-titled Dire Straits SHM-SACD and it sounds wonderful. Edited December 18, 2012 by TMoney
Knuckledragger Posted December 18, 2012 Author Report Posted December 18, 2012 Oof. I just check out the two version of Tattoo You I have. I thought the first was a rip of a 1980s CD, but looking at the waveform I now very much doubt that. I'm going to call it Unknown Remaster:2009 UMG Remaster: The first is passable and the second downright awful.
Knuckledragger Posted December 18, 2012 Author Report Posted December 18, 2012 I have to versions of Steve Wonder's Talking book. Again, I thought one of them was a 1980s pressing, but it looks like a 1990s version based on the DR. Unknown CD: 2000 Remaster: Both look quite good. The 2000 version, surprisingly so. I'm going to have to (gasp) listen to them to determine which one is better. Also, Superstition is the most badass thing, ever. That is all.
TMoney Posted December 18, 2012 Report Posted December 18, 2012 Yeah wow, avoid that 2009 remaster. I've heard some of the earlier Stones ABKCO SACDs and I'd say they are "just ok" as well. Probably about DR10 so listenable for sure, but not stunners by any means. I'd guess they might look a smidge better than that top waveform you posted but not much.
Torpedo Posted December 18, 2012 Report Posted December 18, 2012 This is the DR log from the XRCD of Brothers in Arms. Not my rip, not even sure this is the real thing... foobar2000 1.1.10 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1 log date: 2012-12-18 23:56:23 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed: Dire Straits / Brothers In Arms (XRCD) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR11 -0.18 dB -12.66 dB 5:14 01-So Far Away DR10 -0.18 dB -12.39 dB 8:26 02-Money For Nothing DR9 -0.18 dB -11.14 dB 4:12 03-Walk Of Life DR11 -0.18 dB -13.62 dB 6:34 04-Your Latest Trick DR12 -2.22 dB -17.67 dB 8:31 05-Why Worry DR10 -0.18 dB -12.82 dB 6:58 06-Ride Across The River DR8 -0.18 dB -12.61 dB 4:41 07-The Man's Too Strong DR10 -0.18 dB -11.86 dB 3:41 08-One World DR10 -0.18 dB -13.34 dB 6:58 09-Brothers In Arms -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 9 Official DR value: DR10 Samplerate: 44100 Hz Channels: 2 Bits per sample: 16 Bitrate: 803 kbps Codec: ALAC ================================================================================ Quite better than the SACD on some tracks, slightly on others. Different master anyway.
Knuckledragger Posted December 19, 2012 Author Report Posted December 19, 2012 It turns out that two version of the ambient album (Between Interval - Radio Silence) were in fact the same, so there's no point in comparing them. I have the 2007 remaster and it sounds pretty decent, though it's definitely louder than I'd like. I don't have an original version on CD (my 1980s copy is in fact on tape) but here's a 2007 Japanese remaster of Cinderlla's debut album: Remarkably good, I'd say.I'm wading through a bunch of releases. I might have some Smashing Pumpkins later.
Knuckledragger Posted December 19, 2012 Author Report Posted December 19, 2012 Last night before I went to bed I processed a bunch of remasters. Spoiler alert: the 2011 remasters of The Smashing Pumpkins are awful. I'll post them after lunch maybe. Right now here's a few other things. Tears For Fears - Everybody Wants To Rule The World (1985 Original): Tears For Fears - Everybody Wants To Rule The World (2010 Japanese SHM) Grateful Dead - Brown-Eyed Woman E72 2003 Remaster I don't have any other versions of the Dead's Europe '72. Brown Eyed Woman is a fairly quiet song and that waveform is a little more ...energetic than I'd like. I have Foobar on my wheezy old Wintel and I might check out that DR plugin Antonio mentioned above.
TMoney Posted December 19, 2012 Report Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) The DR plugin is great and I highly recommend it as well. I've found that since I moved to Foobar and the DR-plugin I'm increasingly moving my music with less that DR8 or DR9 to my backup drive to free up space for better sounding albums. Even though they may be albums that I really liked, anything with less than DR8 just dosen't sound that great with my primary rig. With limited listening time why not listen to albums that sound great? Edited December 19, 2012 by TMoney
Knuckledragger Posted December 19, 2012 Author Report Posted December 19, 2012 I processed a bunch of tracks with the DR plugin, and I'm going to post the results along with waveforms. First off the DR for the 2003 Grateful Dead remaster I posted previously:foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1log date: 2012-12-19 15:56:39 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Statistics for: 08-Brown-Eyed WomanNumber of samples: 12298020Duration: 4:39 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Left Right Peak Value: -0.10 dB --- -0.10 dB Avg RMS: -11.47 dB --- -12.48 dB DR channel: 9.20 dB --- 9.80 dB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Official DR Value: DR9 Samplerate: 44100 HzChannels: 2Bits per sample: 16Bitrate: 841 kbpsCodec: FLAC================================================================================ Now let's take a look at The Smashing Volume Levels, shall we? Siva is the opening track from their 1991 debut Gish. Siva1991 original: foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1log date: 2012-12-19 16:09:17 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Statistics for: 02-SivaNumber of samples: 11576544Duration: 4:23 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Left Right Peak Value: 0.00 dB --- 0.00 dB Avg RMS: -14.05 dB --- -13.80 dB DR channel: 11.34 dB --- 11.20 dB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Official DR Value: DR11 Samplerate: 44100 HzChannels: 2Bits per sample: 16Bitrate: 792 kbpsCodec: FLAC================================================================================ Siva 2011 remaster: foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1log date: 2012-12-19 16:09:41 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Statistics for: 02-SivaNumber of samples: 11454240Duration: 4:20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Left Right Peak Value: 0.00 dB --- 0.00 dB Avg RMS: -10.68 dB --- -10.43 dB DR channel: 7.81 dB --- 7.74 dB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Official DR Value: DR8 Samplerate: 44100 HzChannels: 2Bits per sample: 16Bitrate: 911 kbpsCodec: FLAC================================================================================ I did two tracks of Siamese Dream. Initially I picked Disarm, which is a fairly quiet song, so I chose Cherub Rock as well. Disarm 1993 original: foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1log date: 2012-12-19 16:11:13 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Statistics for: 06-disarmNumber of samples: 8687700Duration: 3:17 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Left Right Peak Value: -0.20 dB --- -0.20 dB Avg RMS: -13.44 dB --- -13.24 dB DR channel: 9.99 dB --- 9.56 dB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Official DR Value: DR10 Samplerate: 44100 HzChannels: 2Bits per sample: 16Bitrate: 802 kbpsCodec: FLAC================================================================================ Disarm 2011 remaster: foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1log date: 2012-12-19 16:11:30 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Statistics for: 06-DisarmNumber of samples: 8684172Duration: 3:17 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Left Right Peak Value: -0.07 dB --- -0.07 dB Avg RMS: -11.68 dB --- -11.38 dB DR channel: 8.64 dB --- 8.33 dB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Official DR Value: DR8 Samplerate: 44100 HzChannels: 2Bits per sample: 16Bitrate: 812 kbpsCodec: FLAC================================================================================ Cherub Rock 1993 original: foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1log date: 2012-12-19 16:10:13 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Statistics for: 01-cherub rockNumber of samples: 13140624Duration: 4:58 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Left Right Peak Value: -0.44 dB --- -0.44 dB Avg RMS: -11.52 dB --- -11.23 dB DR channel: 10.24 dB --- 10.00 dB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Official DR Value: DR10 Samplerate: 44100 HzChannels: 2Bits per sample: 16Bitrate: 910 kbpsCodec: FLAC================================================================================ Cherub Rock 2011 remaster: foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1log date: 2012-12-19 16:10:45 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Statistics for: 01-Cherub RockNumber of samples: 13152972Duration: 4:58 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Left Right Peak Value: -0.02 dB --- 0.00 dB Avg RMS: -9.70 dB --- -9.38 dB DR channel: 8.62 dB --- 8.30 dB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Official DR Value: DR8 Samplerate: 44100 HzChannels: 2Bits per sample: 16Bitrate: 972 kbpsCodec: FLAC================================================================================From Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness chose Tonight, Tonight. Tonight, Tonight 1995 original: foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1log date: 2012-12-19 16:11:56 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Statistics for: 02-Tonight, TonightNumber of samples: 11232564Duration: 4:15 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Left Right Peak Value: -0.41 dB --- -0.41 dB Avg RMS: -11.46 dB --- -11.86 dB DR channel: 8.97 dB --- 9.07 dB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Official DR Value: DR9 Samplerate: 44100 HzChannels: 2Bits per sample: 16Bitrate: 856 kbpsCodec: FLAC================================================================================ Tonight, Tonight 2011 remaster: foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1log date: 2012-12-19 16:12:10 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Statistics for: 02-Tonight, TonightNumber of samples: 11229036Duration: 4:15 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Left Right Peak Value: -1.71 dB --- -1.78 dB Avg RMS: -11.46 dB --- -11.89 dB DR channel: 7.58 dB --- 7.94 dB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Official DR Value: DR8 Samplerate: 44100 HzChannels: 2Bits per sample: 16Bitrate: 872 kbpsCodec: FLAC================================================================================*phew* That was quite a process. In light of the above, maybe this thread should be renamed The Remaster Isn't Better.
TMoney Posted December 19, 2012 Report Posted December 19, 2012 Great post! It's kind of a bummer to see that even the mid-1990s Pumpkin original CDs are pretty compressed. DRs of 9 and 10 aren't bad to listen to, but imagine how it would sound if it was in the 13-14 range.
Grahame Posted December 19, 2012 Report Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) knuck's How well do your numbers compare with the info in the Its searchable by Artist and album (top right text fields) So Dire Straits http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=Dire+Straits&search_album= Dire Straits, Brothers in Arms http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=Dire+Straits&search_album=Brothers+in+Arms Smashing Pumpkins, http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=Smashing+Pumpkins&search_album= Smashing Pumpkins, Gish http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=Smashing+Pumpkins&search_album=Gish Rolling Stones, Tattoo You http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=Rolling+Stones&search_album=Tattoo+You The Good (1986) http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=29609 Label: Rolling Stones Records (CBS) Label Code: Catalog Number: CK 40502 Bar Code: 0 7464-40502-2 Country: USA Comment: Digital Master by Greg Calbi at Sterling Sound Analyzed folder: I:\RStonesTattooYouOrigRSRecords\ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Filename ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR14 over -15.56 dB Track01.wav DR13 -1.36 dB -17.37 dB Track02.wav DR14 -1.44 dB -18.40 dB Track03.wav DR13 -0.16 dB -15.95 dB Track04.wav DR11 -1.78 dB -15.29 dB Track05.wav DR12 -1.81 dB -15.40 dB Track06.wav DR15 -0.78 dB -19.45 dB Track07.wav DR14 -0.00 dB -17.16 dB Track08.wav DR14 -2.62 dB -19.97 dB Track09.wav DR14 over -16.52 dB Track10.wav DR12 -0.18 dB -16.20 dB Track11.wav ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of files: 11 Official DR value: DR13 The Bad (2009) Artist: The Rolling Stones Album: Tattoo You Year: 2009 DR Album: 8 DR Track min: 7 DR Track max: 10 DR Tracks: 7 7 8 7 8 9 8 8 10 10 8 (might not be in original order) Label: UMG Label Code: Catalog Number: 0602527015699 Bar Code: 602527015699 Country: Europe Comment: Digitally Remastered. Source: lossless etc Edited December 19, 2012 by Grahame
Dusty Chalk Posted December 19, 2012 Report Posted December 19, 2012 Great post! It's kind of a bummer to see that even the mid-1990s Pumpkin original CDs are pretty compressed. DRs of 9 and 10 aren't bad to listen to, but imagine how it would sound if it was in the 13-14 range. Don't confuse compression for brickwall compression. Especially with rock and roll. I mean, Vapour Trails was horrible. HORRIBLE. There was brickwall compression before it even reached final mixdown (yo dawg...). They just didn't know what they were doing. Snakes and Arrows was much better, despite its poor showing in the DR database. At least it was listenable. If you want a textbook example of why brickwall compression is bad, and regular compression is not as bad, listen to those two albums critically back-to-back. I should mention that it depends entirely on the style of music. Mark Knopfler/Dire Straits is sweet sweet music, and shouldn't be compressed all to hell, even non-brickwall. One would want those dynamics to sing through.
TMoney Posted December 19, 2012 Report Posted December 19, 2012 Point taken, but I just don't prefer the sound of compression even with modern rock. Its funny going to live concerts and hearing what the songs sound like with fuller dynamics. Its especially noticeable with drums. They are so easily tamed by excessive dynamic compression. Live drums sounds great, even over the PA.
Dusty Chalk Posted December 20, 2012 Report Posted December 20, 2012 Yeah, and you're not alone. But it's a preference thing, not unlistenable. If you're at a party and have no control over the airwaves...it'll do.
Knuckledragger Posted March 21, 2013 Author Report Posted March 21, 2013 Ugh. If you like the first two Chemical Brothers albums and want to keep on liking them, do yourself a favor and never look at the waveforms. 1
MoonDragon Posted May 19, 2013 Report Posted May 19, 2013 this is a brilliant and useful discussion, thanks everyone for posting...... it made me join the forum. It's interesting to see that so-called remasters suffer from clipping... I like Barry Diament's approach to mastering have a read of this: http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-barry-diament-soundkeeper-recordings
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