Another System Overhaul Thread

[dsavitsk]

I am in the process of trying to simplify my life as much as possible. Additionally, I have found that, while I will spend many hours a week listening to headphones, it is not unusual to go weeks at a time without turning on the stereo. I live in a small apartment, with neighbors downstairs I don't want to disturb, and I also just don't like loud music anymore. And I am no fan of SE sound. All of these things have me thinking that getting rid of the 300B amps and the floor standing full range drivers might be a good thing.

So, I am looking for advice on what to replace it with. I have a source/preamp I am happy with. So, this really comes down to power amp and speakers. I want it to all be as small as possible, ideally with the speakers mounted to the wall (on vesa arms or something) and with a power amp hidden out of view. That probably means no tubes, and no 25W class A amps. It seems like there are really two directions I could go. The first would be a very low power sand amp (perhaps a modified FirstWatt type design to output 2W or so) with some sort of high efficiency speaker -- though I am not sure what that would be. The second would be a chip amp (horror!) with a more conventional speaker. So, the advice I am seeking is really speakers. And, my starting point is to say that, historically, I always kind of liked B&W's sound, but that Paradigm might be more in my budget. Oh, and used is good.

As for budget, I'll be selling off the 300Bs and the speakers I have (these but nowhere near as nice looking -- probably not worth more than a couple hundred dollars as mine are unfinished plywood). Putting a value on the amps is tough -- they started life as Welborne Labs DRD amps using Electra-Print iron, etc. But, I have since rebuilt them to use D3a drivers (instead of 6N1p), better heater supplies, better biasing, and reworked the power supply a bit. I also had some custom (curly maple) cases made that balance the size of the iron visually. I think they are about as good as a 300B SE amp can be made, but, they don't say Cary on the side so their value is inherently a bit lower.

Anyhow, let's optimistically say that I can get $1500 out of the above, I can build whatever amp I decide on with mostly existing parts for ~$300, and that I don't want to spend everything left on the speakers (using some of the money for a VortexBox, or a tablet to control things with). Suggestions?

[Grahame]

Have you considered Active Speakers / (powered) Studio Monitors since you already have a preamp? - eliminates the need for a power amp + lossy passive crossovers? ( also eliminates one more box )

The Quad 12L's seem to be a Head Case favorite , and understandably so , but there is plenty of "Pro-Audio" gear to chose from in your price range.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Grahame

[dsavitsk]

Have you considered Active Speakers

I hadn't, but I will. Interesting.

[deepak]

How big is your room, and how much space will you be able to have behind the speakers?

[dsavitsk]

Room is ~15x15, but it is largely open to the next room which is ~12x20.

For space behind the speakers, the less the better. I would actually love to mount them right on the wall, or at the least on arms attached to the wall.

[jvlgato]

Free pair of KEF C40. Large bookshelf from the 1980's, Not special, below your level, but decent British sound, and hey, the price is right!

Edited June 2, 2011 by jvlgato

[n_maher]

Second suggestion to try the 12L's.

[dsavitsk]

Free pair of KEF C40. Large bookshelf from the 1980's, Not special, below your level, but decent British sound, and hey, the price is right!

If I find myself in a bind with no speakers at some point, I'll take you up on that. For now, I am in no huge hurry. I just needed to say it out loud, as it were, to start mulling the idea over in my head. I am concerned that I'll take a huge step backward doing this, which is definitely not what I want to do. Plus, I made some PCBs for making a modified F1, and I have parts around to build a tube Gm amp, neither of which would make any sense with traditional dynamic speakers. Both violate the urge to simplify, too.

[swt61]

I owned KEF C40s and found very little I liked about them.

I also think the active monitor route may be right for you Doug. The Paradigm Active 20s I once owned were brilliant, as are the Quads. It's not just a matter of not having to deal with separate amplification that is a bonus, but the fact that the built in amps are tailored to the drivers. A good active monitor will usually out perform the same passive speaker with a really good outboard amp.

I forgot to mention that Al's home system with active ATC speakers is one of the best systems I've heard to date.

Edited June 2, 2011 by swt61

[Dusty Chalk]

I'll third or fourth or whatever the Quad 12L's, but really, speakers are such a personal choice (what type of sound do you go for?), you're going to have to audition the shit out of a goodly number of speakers. Okay, so you're not a fan of the SE sound -- do you like midrange? Do you like bass? Do you like detail?

Another company in the "high efficiency" category that I've been watching on and off for some time now is Reference 3A, but most of their speakers with any bass are big -- the only small ones are the Dulcet and the MM deCapo.

Nothing is going to work well against the wall unless it is designed to do so, but there are a couple. Gallo actually have wall mounts for their Stradas and the globe ones (but IIRC, the latter don't go loud at all, whereas the Stradas go loud just fine), and I believe both Focal and Dali have wall-mount speakers (I believe Dali have a whole line of wall-mount speakers).

But I can definitely vouch for the Stradas, I'd find a way to audition those. They're not high-efficiency, but they're not "hard to drive", either.

Actives are nice, but they're rarely small. You might want to find an active that has an external box, like SE Electronics' recently released egg speakers:

But the bright side is, a lot of them have settings or whatnot for being against a wall, as a lot of studios are set up that way. The Mackies I have, for example, actually have exactly that setting (half wall, quarter wall, or no wall, or something like that). But they're huge, and the active electronics will weigh them down even more, so pretty much are nixed by your "go small or go home" requirement. Some of them are just designed to be against a wall, so don't rule them out if they don't have that setting.

[jvlgato]

I owned KEF C40s and found very little I liked about them.

Perhaps the reason they sit in my basement unused ...

[dsavitsk]

I'll third or fourth or whatever the Quad 12L's

I'm having trouble getting a sense on price for these. Amazon has them at $1199, but that looks to be one speaker. I contacted a local dealer who said they don't stock them, but that they can special order a pair and they will be $1350 for the pair (instead of the usual $1500).

[Dusty Chalk]

$500-$750 used?

And really, that's the only way to do it. Buy used, and that way, when you sell them to try something else, you're not losing much, if anything.

I think of that as the price to pay for multiple "extended home trials".

Also: here? That's funny, they're quoting $999 as the price for a pair right there in the text, you may want to call them on that, perhaps they'll come down some.

Another random thought: 2.1 is probably the best way to get full-range sound and stay small.

[dsavitsk]

Definitely agree on the used thing. And, if a used pair can be had in the $500-600 range, then that's easy enough to just demo them before making any other changes.

[Dusty Chalk]

When they sell for the $500-$600 range, they get snapped up fairly quickly.

[dBel84]

anyone have experience with the likes of the M-audio?

I was tempted by a pair of thesefor the office , I have had no experience with active monitors in the past. I also looked into the Wharfedale Diamond series - specifically the 10.1 for the same reason you mention - small and possible wall mount. Not sure if you have heard Wharfedales before but imo they have a similar presentation to the older B&W bookshelf series..dB

[dsavitsk]

The sad thing is I own a pair of smaller B&W's that I loaned to my brother a few years ago, and that do not appear to be coming back. I've not heard the Wharfedales, but the 9.1's look pretty promising as they have front pointing ports which I gather will allow them to be closer to the wall. And, it looks like about $8 in parts to refurb the crossovers, and perhaps some goop for bracing could make it a nice project speaker.

It does strike me that there are enough cheap and good bookshelves out there, and perhaps some super small digital amps or powered versions of speakers, that this can be experimented with for little enough cash outlay to just put the amps in storage for a bit until I decide what I want to do, or get a bigger apartment.

[dBel84]

It's funny that you link 41Hz, I have the amp6 with a pair of $5 yard sale speakers in the office. It sounds great which is why I never pulled the trigger on the actives..dB Edited June 5, 2011 by dBel84

[dsavitsk]

Another interesting option? The word on various sites seems to be that the Wharfedale Pro 8.2 uses the same drivers and amps as the QUAD 12L, but it instead has a front facing port and costs just over $300 for a pair new. No nearly as pretty, but perhaps cheap and functional?

Also, in the unpowered realm, Wharfedale EVO2-8's seem to be on a big sale everywhere -- looks like a new model is coming out -- which might make them a good choice.

[Dusty Chalk]

The Wharfedales are definitely worth a shot -- I've heard good things about them, though no experience myself.

[tom_hankins]

I thought the Wharfdale room was really good at Axpona. Not sure the models but both the bookshelf and floorstander were cheap and impressive.

[tkam]

I was able to pick up a pair of Quad 12L Actives (new not used) for right at $800 shipped.