Should I give up on the K1000?

[morphsci]

I think it's rather interesting to note who hasn't posted in this thread...

People who don't particularly care for the k1000s?

[grawk]

people who don't care?

[Fitz]

people?

[grawk]

honey badgers

[Dusty Chalk]

I <3 my K1000's.

[Leonardo Drummond]

I cant really say personally what the Qualia is like as its one of the few top headphones i've never owned or heard. I think someone else on this forum might have owned a set. I would be surprised if it has the same sort of tonality as the O2. In my experience I have not heard anything much that can rival the overall attributes of the 02 (except another Stax or electrostatic). However; some dynamics can do things in different ways to the 02 that IMHO still make them worth listening to, even though they may be flawed in different ways.

Many people go for dynamics over electrostatics for the supposed superior bass and on first hearing yes it has impact, sounds full, and prominent, but on closer and extened listening its really an illusion. Spritzer sums it up well as "one note bass", and the more you listen you realiase that the bass on many dynamics is not that articulate, and you really cant differentiate the bass line and textures that well, unlike the 02. The headphone that has impressed me recently in this respect is the Audeze LCD-2, really articulate tuneful bass, and to my ears similar tonality to the O2. However; I still feel the 02 is superior overall.

Here is the link to the RKV My link. Produced in Germany they dont appear on the market that often so you might have to wait a while before one turns up. They appear to be more plentiful in Europe than the US and as far as I can remember I paid about €600 used. The one I had was best I feel with the telefunken tubes, but as the K1K needs a lot of current sometimes on big transients I felt it was underpowered. The K1K is better with something about 10 to 15 watts into 8 Ohms, more like a good speaker amp. I have a friend who uses an ASR Emitter 280 watts into 8 ohms for his K1K's.

I would love to build some of Kevin's designs but just don't have the time as I dont know where i'll be working from one month to the next. Perhaps a hobby for when I retire (if ever I can afford to)

complin, some time ago I had the LCD2s as my top choice, but for some reason I wrote it off... and now, after the Stax, I'm not really attracted to it anymore. If I'm honest nowadays there are not that many headphones that catch my fancy! I'd love to try the R10, the Qualia (just for finding out what it's about), SR-009, 507, HD800, PS1000 and W5000 or W11R. And that's it! Oh, and for some weird reason, the Sony EX1000, there's something about it that makes me curious!

Thank you for the information about the Audiovalve, it does look seriously interesting, and sort of around the same pricepoint of an Aleph it seems, with the advantage of not needing a preamp! But an ASR Emitter for a K1K??? Now that's overkill hahahaha!

Leonardo, you are a lucky man if you have access to some nice equipment for chassis work. I only wish I had that sort of access for my DIY T2 panels.

If you want a good learning project to help build your confidence, take a look at the Cmoy or Mini^3 portable headphone amps. Both are inexpensive to build and will teach you many valuable things for a Firstwatt build (like creating parts lists, selection parts, populating a PCB, etc). These projects are the starting point for many DIY'ers.

That's a fantastic idea Horio, I didn't consider that!! And as they're simple designs, a friend of mine who's studying electronic engineering might be able to help! I guess there's my ticket to DIY heaven!

honey badgers

Hahahahahahahahaha do you watch Top Gear?

[grawk]

I didn't know about the top gear tie in:

[Clarkmc2]

Speaking of Firstwatt amps, I was on the website and saw this:

Would any of these be ideal to power a set of Quad ESL 57s? Here's an impedance graph:

The F1 and F2 are designed to work best when hooked up directly to a voice coil. The Quads use a transformer, do they not? Not a good application. They are magic with dynamic headphones and single driver or full range speakers. Flatter, more precise response and deeper bass extension. Often startlingly so on both counts. Both can be built with power JFETS, which cause distortion to plunge to totally inaudible levels, no kidding. I believe no amplifiers are more accurate than these. Nelson has recently hinted possible further transconductance offerings in the future.

[luvdunhill]

The F1 and F2 are designed to work best when hooked up directly to a voice coil

Wouldn't that imply that the K1000 is a poor choice, given the notch filter that they employ?

[deepak]

Wouldn't that imply that the K1000 is a poor choice, given the notch filter that they employ?

You could take it out and have even less bass! It would be like this magical midrange godess headphone like a Beyer DT48.

[Clarkmc2]

Wouldn't that imply that the K1000 is a poor choice, given the notch filter that they employ?

There is a fix. Notch filters are common with full range speakers, so Nelson Pass has shown how to reconfigure them for this type of amplification. From this paper: link you can see that you can put filters in parallel rather than in series, and this works for current source amps. In this paper you will find the following schematic. R₀, L₀,R₁,C₁and L₁ are a classic RCL notch filter, paralleled to the driver. (The speaker is being electrically modeled; just imagine a speaker in the box labeled speaker instead of the components.)

I abandoned this route eventually - without measuring equipment I would never have managed it correctly - in favor of eliminating the notch filter altogether from my Hammer Dynamics Super 12s. The F2 tames the problem the filter was designed to deal with to the point where I can live with it, and the result is so immediate and convincing I prefer it to anything else I have ever heard. Sometimes you have to be bold and trust your ears. This may work with the K1000, I don't know how well. Either way the bass is still huge.

Plan C, just hook it up like Boomana did and enjoy it anyway. Still a quality amp under any circumstances.

Diagram.doc

[HeadphoneAddict]

I think the O2 is musical enough on his own and the 717 somewhat warm for a SS amp anyway so that is what I suggest. My friend and I didn't find the exstata to be good with the O2.

The advantage of the K1000 is that you can get a very good amp for it which you can use for speakers as well.

I would say though that some K1000s sound quite a bit better than others and it is not just a question of being a bass heavy or bass light pair. So hope you have one that sounds really good hard to determine unless you have more than one side by side )

I agree about the variation in sound between different K1000, and also the big difference with various amps as well. I've heard a few sets, and Namaanf brought a pair of K1000 to my house that sounded magnificent. With his B22 they were slightly more enjoyable than his O2 Mk1 on the Blue Hawaii. After hearing his K1000 I immediately traded for a pair of K1000 for myself. I also ended up with Namaanf's O2 Mk1 (which went to Blutarsky for a week first) because I missed the Mk1 that I traded for the K1000.

But I was disappointed when I got my K1000 as they didn't sound nearly as good as Namaan's pair. Mine seemed to lack some treble extension and detail that I heard in other sets, although sounding similar to Tyler's on a couple of different amps at RMAF. They also didn't seem to have the bass speed and detail that Naaman's had - with my ZDT the bass seemed mushy and blurred, with rolled off highs, although the mids were wonderful. I went through several amps trying to find the best synergy, and ended up with an SAC KH1000 amp that drove them really well. But, the SAC amp is slightly aggressive sounding and if I didn't have a pair that were somewhat more muted than others I might not have been able to enjoy them. I didn't realize that there are also pairs out there that can sound grainy, harsh or bright at times.

Eventually I sold the K1000 to Immtbiker and used the money to buy the LCD-2, which I have a hard time using due to poor comfort. I miss the K1000 soundstage and I would trade the LCD-2 for a pair if I could. But I'd be worried about whether I'd get a good sounding pair or not. So, in Leonardo's case I would also recommend trying to find a good amp for them and keeping them, because he might also regret selling them like I do.

[complin]

I'm surprised you wrote off the LCD-2, but mine is a recent version with new pads and cable, so might be worth giving it another listen if you have the chance and inclination.

Yes after the 007 with a decent amplifier (BH et alt) there's not much else that competes at that level, except perhaps the Sennheiser HE90/HE60. I'm looking forward to hearing the SR-009 which will hopefully be a worthwhile advancement. I think you should persevere with your K1K's so long as you dont blow too much money on trying different amps.

If your reference point is the 007 I doubt you will like the HD800 as IMHO it sounds atrtificial and strained in comparison, i'm at the point of giving up on mine. The GS1000/PS1000 are the only grado's I can wear for any length of time, as generally find the others models very uncomfortable. They are expensive price performance wise to the 007 and coloured, but none the less can be enjoyable for low level listening and seem to work well with modest equipment.

complin, some time ago I had the LCD2s as my top choice, but for some reason I wrote it off... and now, after the Stax, I'm not really attracted to it anymore. If I'm honest nowadays there are not that many headphones that catch my fancy! I'd love to try the R10, the Qualia (just for finding out what it's about), SR-009, 507, HD800, PS1000 and W5000 or W11R. And that's it! Oh, and for some weird reason, the Sony EX1000, there's something about it that makes me curious!

Thank you for the information about the Audiovalve, it does look seriously interesting, and sort of around the same pricepoint of an Aleph it seems, with the advantage of not needing a preamp! But an ASR Emitter for a K1K??? Now that's overkill hahahaha!

[swt61]

It seems to me that most people don't consider the K1000 a good all around headphone, though many like it for certain attributes. I guess I'm in the minority, as I consider it an outstanding main headphone. I think Fitz is with me on this. I've had many headphones through my HF/HC journey, and these are the ones I knew would be my favorite main headphone for the unforeseeable future. It needs to be said though that isolation is obviously not an issue for me. In fact it's the pseudo speaker like qualities that make this headphone my all around favorite.

Amp selection is critical with the K1000. More so than any other headphone I've owned. It also scales extremely well. I love my balanced beta 22/K1000 combo. However after listening to them on a Woo 300B amp briefly, I think a high quality 300B needs to be explored. The bass extension with the 300B was anything but a subtle difference. Shocking would not be an overstatement. A good 10 watts would be important though, as the one I listened through was straining to keep up.

I agree that the Pass amps would be a good choice, as is the beta22. If money is a consideration try out some decent integrated amps as a substitute to headphone amps. Most headphone amps don't have the power needed to drive the K1000 well enough. I even heard them driven by a lower powered NAD integrated, with pretty good results.

[luvdunhill]

I abandoned this route eventually - without measuring equipment I would never have managed it correctly

Good move. You would have found that it's not really possible. Amplifiers are designed with very specific target parameters. This is especially true of vintage equipment and specialty equipment. Strapping something on with a vastly different impedance plot, and thereby vastly different TS parameters is asking these amplifiers to do something they aren't designed to do. In many if not all cases you end up with a distortion FFT that looks like a RSA amplifier and discriminates against no distortion order.

I think the K1000 seem to favor a small, class A solid state amplifier. I'm not sure how these high impedance cans can really be "current hungry" or need insane wattage....those are just myths that are perpetuated without any basis. Many headphone amps run out of voltage swing with the AKG, for example amps made for lower impedance loads... I think people get this backwards and reuse the mythical "current hungry" phrase that seems to describe the inexplicable need for a bigger amp.

Regardless, they are unique and fun headphones. Enjoy!

[Tyll Hertsens]

I think people get this backwards and reuse the mythical "current hungry" phrase that seems to describe the inexplicable need for a bigger amp.

Oh yeah. The whole "headphones that are hard to drive" thing needs to be understood much better. Hell, I need to understand it much better.

[Leonardo Drummond]

Lol, what on earth is going on in that video, grawk? It's really funny though! I thought you watched Top Gear cause there's an episode they talk about the honey badger, and well, it was the first time I heard of it, so I though this could've been the case to you as well! I mean, not that it could have been the first time you heard of it since you're a native speaker, but the reason you mentioned it.

HeadphoneAddict, very interesting story with the AKGs! I don't think treble and bass are the main problems with my particular pair, but precisely the mids. The highs are weird somehow in that they don't, as most other headphones I've heard, sound like they have their own special place in the spectrum. It's as if they're blended in the mids. I believe this happens because of the harshness I hear in the midrange, which does not allow the contrast between midrange "naturalness" and treble crispness to be apparent, and this contrast might be what makes the highs sound like they're where they belong. This is sounding very confusing, but it's how I feel about this problem. In any case, that's precisely my fear! I know that it would be possible for me to get a new pair since I'll probably be able to sell them at a profit here in Brazil, but then I'm 100% sure I won't find another pair in this condition. And as I'm afraid to let it go because of that even not enjoying it, I know it would be ten times as worse if I realized that I in fact love it.

complin, it's not that I don't think it's a good headphone, it's just that most of what I read indicate that what the LCD2s do well is done better by the O2s. That's the main reason why there are not that many headphones nowadays that I want to try. I think that in the end it all comes down to preference, and this is precisely why I feel this way – to me, the O2s are exactly what I was looking for, so the only reason I'd want to try another headphone is to try something really different. I mean, I found my do-it-all headphone, but it's still nice to have different flavours. So now I'm mostly curious about very different cans, which the Audez'e don't seem to be! About the HD800, it's mostly about finding out what the fuss is all about hahahaha! And Grados, I had the chance to hear the GS1000i once, and it was nice but nothing too special, and the reason I want to try the PS1000 is because I think it's so just damn good looking lol!!

swt61, for a while I did think the K1000s are good all-rounders, but today I don't anymore. There are some things it does spectacurlaly well – like rendering double bass and orchestral works –, but mostly I find it too midcentric and hard sounding to be a good choice for many genres. The b22 is a name I keep bumping into, but apparently it's slightly on the expensive side! And about the 300B tubes... would a small integrated 300B amp be a good choice then?

[HeadphoneAddict]

Is there even such a thing as a "small integrated 300B amp"?

[spritzer]

Yup, a bad 300b amp. There is no substitute for large transformers etc,

[Voltron]

Listening to my K1Ks from my Balancing Act with AD1 tubes, and there is nothing harsh or hard in the mid-range and the high end is well-rendered in its own space. This isn't the greatest K1K amp around, but it does a very nice job. I still prefer it from my 300B speaker amps, but that is partly a matter of taste and partly a matter of more balls to the 10 watts they are putting out. Can't you find a decent speaker amp to try out with your pair? Even taking it to an audio shop and convincing them to allow you to connect them would give you some sense of whether there is really something wrong or lacking with your particular pair.

[blessingx]

I used to attack the K1K as I thought it was the only specialty can to hit top-tier status (the GS1K, another specialty can, is a clear opposite in general rankings). Properly amped I'm not sure I feel the same way any longer. I may still end up preferring other general purpose cans (often due to practical considerations), but I think the K1K can certainly hold their own in any case. Again I wouldn't include a lot of "recommend amps" in the "proper" list. There is a bass limit, but it's lower than I'm guessing most have heard and if the signature is "too midrangey", harsh or only about "sparkling highs" there may be a problem. That said several phones can soar if the hunt is long enough for synergy and I don't fault anyone abandoning the pursuit before reaching happiness elsewhere. The LCD2 or JH13 joy is much easier to find.

[Leonardo Drummond]

HeadphoneAddict and Spritzer, there isn't? Well, I didn't mean small as in with a small footprint, but just an integrated without a lot of power, such as a Cary 300 SEI (which looks seriously interesting)!

Voltron, in fact, before realizing that if I sold everything I wasn't using I could afford the O2s, I had decided to get the ZDT! But you know, I now think that even though I want to invest on the K1Ks to make them sound at least very good, my primary cans are the O2s, so I don't think it's worth it to spend more than around 800 dollars on an amp for the AKGs. I did try it with three speaker amps so far, the Cambridge 340A SE (did a very respectable job), the JVC A-S5 (didn't) and the Marantz PM-11S2, obviously the best one, but then it costs a lot... and it didn't completely solve the problem! I'm sure there's nothing wrong with my pair (even if it happens to be one of the not good sounding ones) since I had the opportunity to compare it to another one – I think it's just that I don't like its particular sound signature that much with what I'm hearing. This was actually the point of this thread, to find out whether those issues could be addressed with some better amping, and thankfully it appears they can! And well... I must confess I was also looking for some encouragement to either keep it or sell it – one way or another hahaha!

blessingx, in what sense is the GS1000 a specialty can? I had the chance to listen to one and I thought it was quite good, despite the frequent criticisms I read about it! But on the AKG, as I told Voltron, I'm sure there's nothing wrong with them, this is just my perception of it's sound. The O2 and JH13Pros, in contrast, have a midrange that's just as transparent (ok, maybe a bit less on the JHs) and well defined, but considerably more polite and not as brash. They seem to lose on ultimate texture, but I guess this is in fact because the AKG goes too far and becomes edgy and artificial in that sense. Does sound wonderful with double bass, though! Gives it a particularly woody and agressive sound.

And I absolutely agree with what you said about the long journey! I'm sure they can sound fantastic, but it's a rather long and winding road...

[luvdunhill]

What's interesting about the Cary? What about the Bottlehead Paramount 300B in comparison?

[Clarkmc2]

The Bottlehead is not an integrated amp.

[luvdunhill]

The Bottlehead is not an integrated amp.

Right, an insurmountable challenge to overcome, my bad.