FiiO E7 DAC Held Captive & Tortured

[Sherwood]

From where I sit, Head-Case is more of a closed social club than an open audio forum....

So, whatever. You guys can celebrate running another one out of town and go back to your regularly scheduled programming.

It is more of a closed social club than an open audio forum, without a doubt. New people join all the time, though, and everyone who found their place here started as an impudent yearling with grand ideas everyone else was already tired of. Most of them don't find themselves the subject of roiling debate after less than two months of posting, however. So maybe you're right -- maybe you're better off elsewhere.

That said, don't go telling yourself you've not fit in yet because we don't like hard measurements or because your approach is just too highbrow/reasonable/contemplative/subtle for us -- it's because you're choosing not to hear reasonable criticism, you're choosing to get bent out of shape about less-than-reasonable criticism, and you're choosing to leave rather than stick it out. Again, if this is where you want to plant your flag in the ground, go ahead and do it. We specifically forbid posting random stuff you find on the internet here, but Knuckledragger does it all the time and we love him. You imply that we don't care about measurements, but Dreadhead and Tyll have measured more headphones and amps more stringently than anyone else I can think of, and we love them both. We give Crappyjones no end of grief, but again we love him as well. Anyone who "fits in" here has learned to take some flack and persist in doing what they care about, often to the benefit of those who deride them at first. If that's not you -- if you're not willing to stick that out -- then you don't fit in.

[Torpedo]

This place is about friendship, knowledge, sane criticism and serious music enjoyment. If you don't fit any of those, then go elsewhere. If you are hesitant why you're not fitting, then think again. It's possible you're not that knowledgeable or just you can't practice a healthy criticism. Take your time to guess why.

[Filburt]

I really wasn't implying much of anything about your design experience or knowledge about it since I am not particularly familiar with your background. Clearly from your reviews, you have experience with measurement and this isn't new to you. That wasn't the point of my response. Rather, I have an active interest in quantifying sound quality and it seems you do as well, so I thought it was a logical progression to look at DIY and/or tweaking higher performance gear in future efforts because I thought that might lead to some useful data on the matter. I understood your commentary regarding audibility of distortion as referencing what might be called a standard view, rather than a report on empirical studies you have done, so I thought to comment on that since I thought it would be worth it to do an investigation which would test that position. If you have already done so, then that's OK and I do think it would be interesting if you shared those results. I've already suggested before that I think this work is valuable and that I believe you are taking a genuine interest in contributing to the community. Giving you feedback and critique is not tantamount to indicting your character.

From the tone of your posts, I get the impression that you approached posting here from the perspective that it is more or less like head-fi. Normatively and demographically, it just isn't. You aren't the only person here well experienced in test and measurement and hardware design, and product hysteria and epistemic closure are really not as much of a problem (social exclusivity notwithstanding). So, posting about things like "Too many live in a freakin' fantasy world with kludged together crap they think is somehow amazing when it's really just half baked junk" is (1) telling us something most of us are already well aware of, and (2) it's really kind of insulting because the implication is our criticisms arise out failure to appreciate what's in front of us rather than maybe we have something to contribute to the discussion.

In any case, I don't have any animosity towards you and my intent wasn't to insult you. If I did I probably wouldn't have even bothered giving feedback. I responded because I thought maybe I could join the conversation and contribute to the project and our mutual understanding.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Filburt

[NightWoundsTime]

. Headphone aficionados seem to naively buy half-baked snake oil electronics just as readily as golded-eared speaker lovers. And when someone comes along and implies an inexpensive product can actually sound decent, many feel obligated to discredit such claims. That's just how the game is usually played.

I've been in your position, no budget so you're listening to budget gear. Trying to convince yourself that you're pulling 99% of the performance of the stuff you really want. Do yourself a favor and stop sidegrading. Get yourself to a level of equipment that you're satisfied with. Look for budget level equipment at $500-$1500, look for deals. Do everything you can to build yourself a reference system you can be happy with and stop tyring to convince us you're happy right now.

Edited May 7, 2011 by NightWoundsTime

[Dusty Chalk]

... accused of not having any known good devices...

Yeah, well, you're kind of vague on that. I honestly didn't think you did (other than the Benchmark), given your response to that question initially. I gave you an opportunity to clarify, and you really didn't put a whole lot of meat with those potatoes.

[mypasswordis]

What about that idiot Elias Gwinn who is an "engineer" for Benchmark? I don't have that much trust in Benchmark products after that, either.

[Filburt]

What about that idiot Elias Gwinn who is an "engineer" for Benchmark? I don't have that much trust in Benchmark products after that, either.

?

[Driftwood]

I hadn't really been following this thread as I don't have any interest in the FiiO E7 or its measurements, but it turns out it was an excellent read (I still haven't read the original review though, and probably won't). I think this is a great thread for people who wonder whether or not they would fit in here and what this forum is all about. NwAvGuy, I think you are being a little overly defensive. I think the folks here want to like you, but I think you need to learn to have a little humility and understand how to take criticism. You talk about things in sweeping generalizations, but when it comes out that you don't really have much experience with the items you are generalizing, you wonder why you have a credibility problem? State your measurements, draw your conclusions, avoid the hyperbole, and accept criticism in the spirit it is offered, and you'll do fine.

[Tyll Hertsens]

It is more of a closed social club than an open audio forum, without a doubt.

^^^This.

.... aww, what the hell ... and a little this:

Relax. Dialog gently. It's not about you.

[donunus]

NwAvGuy,

I have the FiiO e7 myself. It is decent but it is hard to really compare it with high end stuff as a DAC just because it has the limitation of not having a line out.

[NwAvGuy]

NwAvGuy,

I have the FiiO e7 myself. It is decent but it is hard to really compare it with high end stuff as a DAC just because it has the limitation of not having a line out.

Isn't this a headphone forum? Isn't the whole point to drive headphones? Especially for portable gear? Like I want to carry around 3+ devices all wired together? The fewer the better for portable use.

[NwAvGuy]

.... aww, what the hell ... and a little this:

Ok, Mr Hertsens... let's say we're in the same city sometime... you game for some blind testing? Say my shit, crap, worthless, junk, wanker FiiO E7 vs something WAY more expensive and Head-Case Elite Blessed?

Let's see you MAN UP to a blind test? Regardless of the outcome, you publish the video on Inner Fidelity, and I do the same on my blog.

You game old man? Put your reputation on the line?

[Grahame]

Point taken about portable gear, in which case iems are likely to be winners vs "headphones" in terms of isolation ,sound quality + portability.

But what about the domestic use case, where speakers may not be an option (due to neighbors in an apartment, or spouses etc) and portability is less of a concern. Where do we reach the inflection point of diminishing returns in this case?

[NwAvGuy]

Point taken about portable gear, in which case iems are likely to be winners vs "headphones" in terms of isolation ,sound quality + portability.

But what about the domestic use case, where speakers may not be an option (due to neighbors in an apartment, or spouses etc) and portability is less of a concern. Where do we reach the inflection point of diminishing returns in this case?

I was just trying to put a $99 portable DAC/amp in proper perspective. I listen to the headphone output of a $1600 Benchmark DAC1 Pre at home. Do I think it exceeds the point of diminishing returns in terms of accuracy and transparency? I do.

Is the real "inflection point" at a far lower price point than $1600? Probably.

Is it black and white? No.

Edited May 15, 2011 by NwAvGuy

[jvlgato]

Ok, Mr Hertsens... let's say we're in the same city sometime... you game for some blind testing? Say my shit, crap, worthless, junk, wanker FiiO E7 vs something WAY more expensive and Head-Case Elite Blessed?

Let's see you MAN UP to a blind test? Regardless of the outcome, you publish the video on Inner Fidelity, and I do the same on my blog.

You game old man? Put your reputation on the line?

Quoting Lebron James:

“it's kind of funny. It's almost like Jay-Z [responding to a negative comment] made by Soulja Boy. It doesn't make sense to respond."

[NwAvGuy]

Quoting Lebron James:

“it's kind of funny. It's almost like Jay-Z [responding to a negative comment] made by Soulja Boy. It doesn't make sense to respond."

I'm fully expecting some form of "no response"... Many here talk a mean talk I'm just curious if anyone is willing to put their ears and rep/cred on the line? Or will the challenge just be ignored?

Seriously, this forum is full of posts about all the obvious differences between headphone amps. So how hard can it be to distinguish a $99 Chinese mainstream mid-fi crap amp/DAC from a genuine high-end amp? It should be easy right?

I got trashed for even suggesting the E7 is respectable. I'm just asking for someone to help verify it really *does* obviously suck. Tyll is perfect. He does this stuff for a living.

Edited May 15, 2011 by NwAvGuy

[jvlgato]

Tyll is perfect for YOUR needs. You get exposure in a national publication with a great reputation, which took decades to develop.

He gets ... Um, well, he gets to be on your unknown blog, comparing an inexpensive amp to an expensive amp. Even if he can tell them apart, you get a national stage to say your bit. And he gets to prove he can tell a cheap amp from an expensive amp. To an audience that already knows he can do this. Maybe he has better things to do with his time.

Seems pretty one sided to me. You're the Mobius Strip of headphone testing challenges.

[Dusty Chalk]

I got trashed for even suggesting the E7 is respectable.

No, you got trashed for not speaking clearly, and speaking in hyperbole.

Take, for example, your above statement, comparing it to the Benchmark. I don't even know what it means -- so which is better? Are you saying the FiiO E7 is a better DAC at its price point than the Benchmark is at its, or are you saying it's just plain better?

Also -- what was the point in picking on Tyll? It's hypothetical anyway -- you said, "if in same town", like you want to downplay the part where one of you would have to travel to the other. Really? You don't think we know the game of this by now?

[NwAvGuy]

what was the point in picking on Tyll? It's hypothetical anyway -- you said, "if in same town", like you want to downplay the part where one of you would have to travel to the other. Really? You don't think we know the game of this by now?

If you review the last 4 pages of this thread, Tyll is the one being "picked on"? Really?

What's with the double standard here? You all get to flip shit at me, ask me to grow a pair, but when I do, that's not cool either?

It's not hypothetical at all. Denver. October 14th, 15th, or 16th. Pick the day.

[jvlgato]

You all get to flip shit at me, ask me to grow a pair, but when I do, that's not cool either?

Correct.

Did you read the part about being right ... that this is more like a closed social club?

We know and love Tyll ... He's a long standing friend. You're just some guy.

Maybe that'll change in the future. Doesn't seem to be going that way, though, does it?

[deepak]

Not withstanding the Tyll comment I do agree with NwAvGuy that double blind testing is the right way to do this comparison. If I was anywhere near you I'd take you up on it against either of my Assemblage DACs.

[grawk]

who gives a fuck if you can set up a test some shitty dac can pass. this isn't about that. it's about you being an output only device.

[NwAvGuy]

No, you got trashed for not speaking clearly, and speaking in hyperbole.

I'm an engineer. Hyperbole isn't even in our vocabulary. But we can still be useful.

Take, for example, your above statement, comparing it to the Benchmark. I don't even know what it means -- so which is better? Are you saying the FiiO E7 is a better DAC at its price point than the Benchmark is at its, or are you saying it's just plain better?

I'm just trying to "fit in" as advised. The question was rather open ended. How would you answer:

"But what about the domestic use case, where speakers may not be an option (due to neighbors in an apartment, or spouses etc) and portability is less of a concern. Where do we reach the inflection point of diminishing returns in this case?"

We know and love Tyll ..

Tyll seems like a good guy. I've got nothing against him at all. He seemed like an obvious choice but I'm open to others. My main goal here is to prove a point, not free publicity. Hits to my blog don't get me anything. Like you said, I'm just "some guy".

[mypasswordis]

You've amassed quite a list of audio devices I wouldn't consider. Have you considered comparing things to known good devices?

This^

No, you got trashed for not speaking clearly, and speaking in hyperbole.

Take, for example, your above statement, comparing it to the Benchmark. I don't even know what it means -- so which is better? Are you saying the FiiO E7 is a better DAC at its price point than the Benchmark is at its, or are you saying it's just plain better?

These

[Fitz]

What's with the double standard here? You all get to flip shit at me, ask me to grow a pair, but when I do, that's not cool either?

Yes, exactly. If you pulled your head out of your ass long enough to understand what this forum is about, you'd already know that.

My main goal here is to prove a point, not free publicity.

You do realize that's not much better, right? How about you try making your main goal here to be a contributing member of the community, and then worry about proving your points. Taunting everyone to come take your challenge just to satisfy yourself isn't much better than trolling. And before you go "lolol u afraid of my test so u call it trol" realize it has nothing to do with the test itself, and everything to do with you acting like such a contentious prick.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Fitz