Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 80... Surprised!

[NwAvGuy]

Have you ever even seen a HD600/650? They're mostly plastic too.

HD600 > HD650 for me, all day errday

I have seen, and briefly listened to, the 600's but it's been a while. They have more metal than the almost entirely plastic 590's and I remember they felt much more substantial.

From what I know, the 600's are 580 drivers in an upgraded design. And the 650's are the 600 design with supposedly improved drivers. But I didn't know my 590's are apparently a bastard child in Sennheiser's audiophile reference line.

Trying to figure out the real differences between the 600 and 650 from reading stuff online is tough. Most seem to think the 650's are warmer, more laid back, more forgiving, more "tube like", have more bass, etc. Some even say the 600's are closer to the 800's than they are the 650's.

[digger945]

If Ric's insouciant spending spree continues, you'll soon have at least one opinion.

Edited April 9, 2011 by digger945

[deepak]

I guess there's at least some consistency. The new HD598 from I've read, is nearly identical, save for the pimped out color treatment, to the HD595.

I don't like the physical design of the 555/595. And, despite massive complaints about cracked headbands, Sennheiser apparently couldn't be bothered to fix that as the 558/598 reportedly use the same sketchy plastics and construction. But gee, they did spend money updating the 598 color scheme to match "Euro sport sedan interiors". I picked up a 595 when they came out and was so put off by Sennheiser going backward in the name of fashion I never even listened to them.

A lot of headphones in the $100 - $500 range seem to have fatal (or near fatal) flaws for me. Some are just plain uncomfortable (Grado/Alessandro/Sony/Etc). Others, like the ATH-AD700's, fall off my head. And a lot sound worse than what I already have. Comparatively, I'm willing to live with laid back midrange.

Perhaps I need to spend more time with some HD 600/650's? At least they're not so much form over function like the current 5xx series but they're still a lot heavier and clamp harder than my HD 590's.

Hate to say this but the HD580/600/650 also have a tendency to get cracked headbands.

[Tyll Hertsens]

No way. They're nearly the same. In fact, when the fire happened I saw what looked like parts interchanged. Um...the fabric between the drivers and the ear, for one. Anyway, the difference isn't much in my estimation. Most of the 600/650 diffence chatter is just that, IMHO.

[morphsci]

Naw the 650s are 8 1/3% MOAR better than the 600s.

[deepak]

No way. They're nearly the same. In fact, when the fire happened I saw what looked like parts interchanged. Um...the fabric between the drivers and the ear, for one. Anyway, the difference isn't much in my estimation. Most of the 600/650 diffence chatter is just that, IMHO.

Tyll you are spot on.

At one point someone discovered HD600s where shipping with HD650 drivers from Amazon (way back in the day this is probably rectified by now). No one could tell until they removed the earpads and foam.

NwAvGuy if you want something very different from the Sennheisers try the Stax Lambda line. An SR-Lambda is a very good headphone and the cheaper amps or transformer boxes are good matches.IMO the SR-Lambda is a big stepup from any Sennheiser (with the exception of HD800 possibly).

[mypasswordis]

No way. They're nearly the same. In fact, when the fire happened I saw what looked like parts interchanged. Um...the fabric between the drivers and the ear, for one. Anyway, the difference isn't much in my estimation. Most of the 600/650 diffence chatter is just that, IMHO.

I've clearly swapped an HD600 and HD650 back and forth to listen for differences and while that is not a proper blind test the differences in sound are clearly there. Also, how do you account for the differences in measurements?

[NwAvGuy]

This is getting more interesting. I appreciate all the comments as I respect the opinions here way more overall than some of the wild stuff on other headphone forums. Although I have seen some rational discussions on Gearslutz from guys who currently own both the 600 and 650 so are not especially biased towards either one. They claim the 600's are more accurate for mixing work, but the 650's are better for enjoying music.

@deepak in the "revealing" thread I mentioned I'm tempted by the Stax SR-307/323 combo but the pair is spendy at $1200+. I've also had my eyes open for a good used Stax deal. And yeah, I've seen pics of cracked 600/650 headbands. I have to wonder if that's really carbon fiber?

@Tyll if Sennheiser is playing mix-and-match at the factory that might explain some of the "they sound the same" and "they sound way different" comments on the 600 vs 650. It's also fucked up for a company like Sennheiser to do that with $600 flagship headphones.

I can get B-stock 600's with a warranty from a legit dealer for around $200. The best price I can find on legit 650's is more than double that at $450.

Edited April 9, 2011 by NwAvGuy

[Beefy]

NwAvGuy if you want something very different from the Sennheisers try the Stax Lambda line. An SR-Lambda is a very good headphone and the cheaper amps or transformer boxes are good matches.IMO the SR-Lambda is a big stepup from any Sennheiser (with the exception of HD800 possibly).

I've got both the SR-Lambda and the HD650 now, and I like them both for fairly different reasons. The Lambda is tight and fast with excellent clarity, which is great for rocking out. The HD650 has a warmer, smoother tone that is excellent for chilling out and relaxing. I tend to reach for the HD650 a bit more these days, purely because I need to chill more than rock right now.

The only other comparison point I have to bring to the table is the HD515/555/595, which are all steaming turds.

[NwAvGuy]

I've got both the SR-Lambda and the HD650 now, and I like them both for fairly different reasons. The Lambda is tight and fast with excellent clarity, which is great for rocking out. The HD650 has a warmer, smoother tone that is excellent for chilling out and relaxing. I tend to reach for the HD650 a bit more these days, purely because I need to chill more than rock right now.

Thanks. I'm curious if you (or others here) notice much difference in long term comfort between the Stax and HD650's?

[Beefy]

Thanks. I'm curious if you (or others here) notice much difference in long term comfort between the Stax and HD650's?

Both are pretty damn comfy..... but if I had to nitpick, the Stax pleather pads aren't great on warm days and I prefer the fabric of the HD650. My HD650's are a bit frankenphone, because the headband and cable are actually from an HD600. The HD600 cable is a fair bit lighter and easier to manage than the Stax cable, especially since the 2.5m Stax cable isn't quite long enough to reach my listening position, thus need the extension cable. OTOH, the 3m Sennheiser cable reaches just fine on its own.

[NwAvGuy]

Thanks Beefy. That helps. I've heard the heavier cable on the 650's is a mixed bag. I've also heard using the stout balanced line outputs of the Benchmark DAC1 to directly drive HD 580/600/650's in a balanced configuration yields amazing results. Not sure if that's myth or fact but I might be experimenting with some dual XLR cables if I get the 600's or 650's to see for myself.

[Tyll Hertsens]

What's the output impedance of the Benchmark? It'll surely swing enough voltage.

[NwAvGuy]

What's the output impedance of the Benchmark? It'll surely swing enough voltage.

According to the specs the balanced output impedance depends on the internal jumper settings. But it can be as low as 43 ohms. That's not super low, but it also shouldn't cause a huge interaction with 300 ohm cans. I do, however, have to wonder if some or all of the difference people report using the balanced line outs is really the higher impedance? The Benchmark headphone jacks are 0.1 ohms. It might be fun to play around with depending on the cost of a sacrificial set of cables (OEM or after market).

I may also build up a DIY balanced amp one of these days. There are several tempting designs floating around and I have a few ideas for improvements.

So I take it you'd buy the $200 HD600's rather than the $450 HD650's in a heartbeat? (Yeah,I know you probably get lots of things for free, dealer cost, employee pricing, etc, but some of us don't those perks anymore).

[Beefy]

So I take it you'd buy the $200 HD600's rather than the $450 HD650's in a heartbeat? (Yeah,I know you probably get lots of things for free, dealer cost, employee pricing, etc, but some of us don't those perks anymore).

I bought my HD650 for under $200 second (third? fourth?) hand. Now admittedly they weren't in great condition, but having never heard them before it was a low risk investment.

[NwAvGuy]

Thanks again all for the comments. I'm going to give up on the DT880's. Many have said they have a significant mid-bass emphasis (which consider "warm" in a good way) and the same less than accurate highs as my DT770's. From what I can figure out, the DT770's are generally more accurate above 100 hz than the 880's. So the 880's wouldn't get me much worthwhile.

While I might like the more forgiving sound and slightly enhanced bass of the HD650's, many have said they clamp harder than the 600's and are not as comfortable. And others, like Tyll, say they're very close in sound quality. So given the big price difference, the 600's seem like the better choice.

[morphsci]

If you buy used there really is no price difference, as has been said numerous times. I also do not see how the 650s could clamp harder on the same size head as the 600s assuming the same starting conditions. Seems like a generalization using a sample size of one that has become the norm on of hustler-fi.

Edited April 10, 2011 by morphsci

[mypasswordis]

I've never heard anyone say the Dt880 has more bass than the fart cannon DT770s. In fact, how is that even possible? And there's no way the DT770's bass hump is below 100Hz because the bass barely extends below 100Hz, the hump is more like edit: 100-200Hz. I'd have to listen to them again to figure out where it is exactly which is something I'd really rather not do.

1) Stop getting your "facts" from Huddler-Fi

2) Stop basing anything off your HD590 and DT770 80ohm, they are crap

3) Either the HD600 or HD650 will blow the aforementioned two headphones out of the water in SQ

4) What is your problem with comfort? Man up.

... IMO

Edited April 10, 2011 by mypasswordis

[NwAvGuy]

If you buy used there really is no price difference, as has been said numerous times. I also do not see how the 650s could clamp harder on the same size head as the 600s assuming the same starting conditions. Seems like a generalization using a sample size of one that has become the norm on of hustler-fi.

The 600's are cheaper used as well. Completed sales on eBay for 600's are $140 - $225. For the 650's they're $250 - $330. Given they're newer and retail for $100 more it's not surprising.

I don't know why the 650's clamp harder, but some said Sennheiser did it on purpose to improve the seal and driver position. I wonder if it's at least partly from comparing well used 600's (that have probably lost some headband tension) to fairly new 650's? I've seen the complaint lots of places besides head-fi. Check the second review on Headroom here for example:

http://www.headphone.com/product_review.php?icn=0020080650&rating=4

I guess you can stretch out either one as long as you avoid cracking the headband.

[morphsci]

Well I have had both 600s and 650s in the house at the same time with two different pairs of 650s and three different pairs of 600s and they all clamped the same amount which was not that much. I paid right around $200 for my current pair of 650s.

[Driftwood]

I think the likely source of that rumor is that people over at head-fi who already had well-used 600s bought the 650 and found that it was tighter, but misattributed it to a design change and not to the fact that it was simply new and the pads were firmer.

[morphsci]

I think the likely source of that rumor is that people over at head-fi who already had well-used 600s bought the 650 and found that it was tighter, but misattributed it to a design change and not to the fact that it was simply new and the pads were firmer.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

[HeadphoneAddict]

The fit definitely loosens with the age of the phones and the pads, and with new pads they get fairly tight again.

In my case, having owned a couple of HD600 and a couple of HD650 I prefer the clarity and balance of the HD600 over the HD650.

[morphsci]

^^^ I rest my case.

[Dusty Chalk]

... DT880's. Many have said they have a significant mid-bass emphasis (which consider "warm" in a good way)...

What? You do realize that they have less bass emphasis than the DT770's. Right?

Well, anyway, whatever. Just don't be perpetuating that without having heard them for yourself.

Re: HD600 vs. HD650 -- I agree with Tyll, they're pretty close. Especially well-amped. And remember that headphone position (including how far they are from the ears, I.E. as a result of clamping force) has a lot to do with sound quality.