n_maher Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 Oh SNAP! Just when I thought my wallet was safe Tyll goes and drops a bombshell like this thing: Preliminary pricing for the amp will be $899 with Desktop Modules. $199 Home modules upgrade. $299 Desktop Balanced DAC, $399 Home Balanced DAC. $199 balanced stepped attenuator upgrade. For more information have a look at the Sponsored Thread on Head-Fi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkam Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 Nice to see a non-diy entry in the sub-$1000 balanced amp market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyll Hertsens Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 Just playing by the rules here, so two things: 1) Just made a post in the "Manufacturers Product Announcements" area here Fuck the second thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 Just playing by the rules here, so two things: 1) Just made a post in the "Manufacturers Product Announcements" area here Fuck the second thing. I'd be all over that if I weren't still waiting for my TooleAudio Balanced VaporAmp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ojnihs Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 Damn... under $1000 yet still so far out of reach... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepak Posted November 28, 2006 Report Share Posted November 28, 2006 GG that is an awesome deal. That is incredibly tempting with DAC upgrade, I could completely remove my HD650 from my current setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSloth Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 And you never told ME Tyll?! Well I suppose you did say you'd do it at some point, but still!!! I have been out of it, headphone wise recently though. Glad things are going well over there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humanflyz Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 Yup, this one is on my radar as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyll Hertsens Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 And you never told ME Tyll?! Well I suppose you did say you'd do it at some point, but still!!! Errr...ah...ooops. \ Actually I have been thinking about you, old man, would you like to do a little audition/review? Do you still have your balanced cans? Seriously, I have thought about you in this whole DB developement process, and felt like this was a product that was perfect for a person like you who was demanding yet not crazy about spening large piles of cash. Personally, I'd never be able to justify one of our large amps (3 kids etc.), but I just might stretch the budget for one of the new Desktop Balanced amps as they pack so much performance without without all the pricy bells and whistles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSloth Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 Errr...ah...ooops. \ Actually I have been thinking about you, old man, would you like to do a little audition/review? Do you still have your balanced cans? Seriously, I have thought about you in this whole DB developement process, and felt like this was a product that was perfect for a person like you who was demanding yet not crazy about spening large piles of cash. Personally, I'd never be able to justify one of our large amps (3 kids etc.), but I just might stretch the budget for one of the new Desktop Balanced amps as they pack so much performance without without all the pricy bells and whistles. I still use 650's as my reference, so if you throw in a balanced cable... I like the simpliciy of this one, in that it doesn't have the preamp section which adds circuitry and switches etc. This is a plain headphone amplifier, with a single (unless you count the DAC) input and single output. And it's dinky. I'm also interested in what supply you found, especially as you say it's a switcher which ought to sound worse than the linear one you are currently including, shouldn't it? Though it does present a difficult choice in the Desktop line: you can go all Max in single ended, or all Home in balanced. That would actually be a fascinating comparison to see whether the drive scheme itself will make up for the difference in the modules, and how different the two will actually sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Dreamer Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 Though it does present a difficult choice in the Desktop line: you can go all Max in single ended, or all Home in balanced. That would actually be a fascinating comparison to see whether the drive scheme itself will make up for the difference in the modules, and how different the two will actually sound. I think that will depend on the headphones used, and how they react to balanced drive. Whether the listener prefers the changes associated with balanced drive over the benefits of a more accurate (presumably) amplifier. Of course, not having seriously auditioned the HR modules, it might come down to whether or not one likes the OPA627 sound signature, which has always been a bit dark and fuzzy in the amps I've heard it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSloth Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 it might come down to whether or not one likes the OPA627 sound signature, which has always been a bit dark and fuzzy in the amps I've heard it in. I'm trying not to shill with this one, but I really never found much of a signature to the 627 modules. In fact it was the other way round - all the other opamps were realtively warm and fuzzy, with the 627 to my ears sounding just right. So the Home Modules with the 2134's don't have quite the same clarity and texture that the 627 based modules do, but yet balanced drive, particularly with 650's is considered to improve those qualities so it would be an interesting challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFKMan23 Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 It's curious how the Home DAC use 627s for outputs yet the home module use the 2134 for their op amp portion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSloth Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 It's curious how the Home DAC use 627s for outputs yet the home module use the 2134 for their op amp portion. Because the desktop DAC already has 134's, and adding class A biasing wouldn't really enough of a performance change to justify the difference - in the Home Module, the class A biasing is signifciant as it applies heavily to the output buffer stage as well as the voltage gain, and is therefore justifiable without an opamp change. Also, with the Modules, there is only the option to change biasing and opamps as you go up the line, whereas with the DAC they had the option of adding upsampling as well, as they did with the Max DAC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFKMan23 Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 So then are the key differences between the home DAC and the max DAC the upsampling and the DAC chip used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSloth Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 So then are the key differences between the home DAC and the max DAC the upsampling and the DAC chip used? Yep, the Max DAC upsamples to 192kHz, the Home DAC doesn't upsample at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyll Hertsens Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 Fuck a duck! It's hard to keep track of what's being said where! I wish this rift in the community didn't exist. AAaaaarrrrrgggghhhh! Well I just spent the morning listening to the two amps off the Wadia. And Iron Dreamers and The Sloths comments are pointing pretty strongly to what I'm hearing. It seems to me that the Desktop w/Max modules (DM) is faster and more articulate than the Desktop Balanced w/Home modules (DBH). But the soundstage is wider and deeper on the DBH, and the sound, though a bit warm and fuzzy compared to the 627s in the DM, is also more coherent and less harsh. My guess is that while the DM is articulate and clean, it also suffers from some of the distortions that get partially canceled in the balanced drive configureation. Based purely on what should theoretically be true: the DB should have more 2nd order distortion because some of the odd order stuff should be cancelled by balanced operation, and therefor the DB should be more "tubelike" then the DM. (Major assumption there, I'll try to get some measurements to verify that some month soon.) It is a VERY wierd comparison because at first blush it just sounds like the DM is a bit brighter and quicker than the DBM; that would usually give a better sense of "air" and deeper image. But as you listen you begin to hear this ease with which the DBM projects an image and space that the DM doesn't achieve quite as well. I tried both K701s and HD650s in the test and the nature of the differences was roughly the same for both cans, however, the general consensus around here is that the 650s improve more with balanced drive than the K701s do. We assum that's because the lower impedance of the 701 causes a larger change in damping factor from balanced to unbalanced operation. (Assuming a 1 ohm output impedance of amp and 62 Ohm impedance for 701 and 300 Ohm for 650: Dammping for 650 is 300 on DM and 150 for DBH, for 701 is 62 on DM and 31 on DBH. Because your really starting to get close to the magic damping factor of 10 with the 701 driven balanced, these cans may suffer from a slight loss of damping when driven balanced compared to the 650.) In the final analysis, I would take the DBH over the DM because I am so highly averse to harshness and I really like a layed back and easy sound, but I know there are some folks who want a lightning quick sound and would percieve the DBH as "warm and fuzzy" compared to the DM. I also think that to oversimplify my listening to harsh vs. warm and fuzzy would be wrong; it really is true that there is significant latitude in "good sound" and listening tastes out there and these two products are a perfect example of really good products that sound different. How's that for spin? Not really spin though, as we all know that there are a lot of great amps out there and they all have there own character. Simply saying a Single Power is better than a Rudistor is oversimplifying to the point of usless advice, because it simply may not be true for some folks. To be truthful, this is not an easy lesson for someone like me to learn. I really want to believe there is one "right" and that I'm working towards it. To be in the position of knowing that there is more than on satisfying solution means that there is no simple goal to shoot for. Fortunatly, there are so many other issues driving the end result (price point, portability, technologies used, feature set) it really is usually a matter of making the product you are working on as good as possible rather than making the product you are working on sound a certain way. Here's the picture of the test set-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granodemostasa Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 what! a balenced ss amp and it wont' even make things superfast and clean? why am i looking at this for then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSloth Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 what! a balenced ss amp and it wont' even make things superfast and clean? why am i looking at this for then That's a weird post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granodemostasa Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 That's a weird post. sorry.... my impression of ss/balenced has always been a very lean, fast, clear sound, and i thought that would make a nice compliment to the warm sound of the zana deux. well, i guess i'll have to hear it at the national meet to get an impression of it... still, it's an impressive accomplishment, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n_maher Posted November 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 what! a balenced ss amp and it wont' even make things superfast and clean? Bear in mind that his comments are relative to the DM, not every other amp in existence. My experience is that the home modules sound very clean and clear, not all all what I'd call fuzzy for sure. Now in comparison to the max modules that may well be the case but as a standalone impression I'm not left wanting for speed or clarity. And of course hearing is believing so your best bet is to find a way to hear it and make up your own mind what it sounds like to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyll Hertsens Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 Yeah, that's why it so dangerous to be honest: people will just run with the oversimplification. The DBH is clean, black between the notes, articulate, and is amazingly easy on the ears. Just not as fast sounding as the DM, but half of that, I think, is a little harshness due to the uncancelled distortions. I really think that ..... Oh shit, just listen to one when you get the chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 I wish you would have gone with a four-pin connector as an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granodemostasa Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 hey hey.. stop bombing... i meant it as an "oversimplication" it's not like i'm going to ride off an amp before i actually hear it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 I wish you would have gone with a four-pin connector as an option. I agree. The 4pin xlr is so much better a choice for balanced headphone amps. And then it'd work with the K1000 without need for adapter cables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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