Should I go tankless?

[jvlgato]

My water heater is about 15 years old, so I've been thinking about getting a new one sometime soon before it blows up on me. With the Federal discount of 30% up to $1500 for all things green set to expire at the end of 2010, I'm deciding if I should go for a tankless or hybrid water heater before the end of the year.

My current model is a gas 15 gallon one. It works mostly fine, but at the end of a long shower, it can run out.

The hybrids look great, but really expensive, and there aren't too many gas models. I'd rather not have to retrofit an electric, since I have an old house, unless it's easier/cheaper than I think.

My wife is a bit of a tree hugger, so she's up for anything green, esp if there's a discount, and we're going to need a water heater soon, anyway.

From what I've read, the tankless ones get mixed reviews, though. The biggest drawbacks I see are that they can be prone to surges of hot and cold water (cold water sandwich), as the unit is triggered on and off while you are adjusting water temps by turning the faucet up or down. Also, there may be more maintenance involved - most of the models recommend cleaning the filter and/or cleaning the unit itself to prevent deposit buildup inside the unit. I'm very lazy and can see myself neglecting that kind of stuff, but maybe that's recommended, but it's really fine if you blow it off?

It looks like my best options are a tankless model, one of the newer almost tankless 'hybrids' by AO Smith, which has a small tank as a buffer, (but these are about $2000 and weigh just under 200lbs, or just a regular high efficiency tank one, like the AO Smith Vertex, but these are also just under $2000 and 200lbs.

I'm not very handy, so I'd be hiring someone to do this. Home Depot carries a bunch of Rheem tankless models, otherwise, the others look like I'd order online and hire my own contractor/plumber.

Any thoughts? Anyone with direct experience with one of the newer green models?

[Voltron]

I am in the same market and keep meaning to ask Jim what he bought and how his experience has been. Takagi is another brand that has been recommended -- although dubiously -- by our contractor. He says he has replaced as many instant hot water heaters as he has installed.

[tyrion]

Our water heater is 17 years old and will be dealing with this question soon I suspect. I haven't begun the research on any of this yet. Our experience is that running out of hot water has not been an issue, even before my daughter left for college. In less than a year, we will be empty nesters, so the simple solution may be just another traditional water heater, unless there ends up being some other benefits involved.

[Salt Peanuts]

Assuming you're planning on staying for the long haul, I'd look at how long it would take for you to recoup the higher initial investment for higher efficiency/tankless water heaters. CR had a article about this in 2008 and according to them, both tankless and high efficiency storage models took 15-20 years before they recouped the initial investment through annual savings. The Federal Credit will definitely offset that time period, but you'd need more efficient (i.e., more expensive) models to qualify for it, at least that was the case when we replaced our furnace.

Here's a tidbit from CR in Oct '08 in regards to maintenance issues.

Tankless units might need more care

During our long-term testing, an indicator on the tankless model warned of scale buildup. We paid $334 for special valves and a plumber to flush out the water heater with vinegar. Many industry pros recommend that tankless models be serviced once a year by a qualified technician. Calcium buildup can decrease efficiency, restrict water flow, and damage tankless models. Experts suggest installing a water softener if your water hardness is above 11 grains per gallon. Ignoring this advice can shorten your warranty.

[tkam]

Are you sure your current one is only 15 gallons? That seems awful small, and is probably why you run out of hot water during showers. I wouldn't bother with the tankless or high-effieciency models your looking at. Why pay $2000 for something like that when you can buy a regular gas one for $500?

[kevin gilmore]

you might want to consider one of the hybrid units that have a very high efficiency heat pump on the

top, and an electric heater for those high usage times. Lots less parts than the tankless types.

And completely electric, so no exhaust pipe necessary.

[spritzer]

if you really want to be green, just get used to cold water.

Or move here.

[swt61]

if you really want to be green, just get used to cold water.

Wouldn't that make you Blue?

FWIW I installed one of the Bosch tankless heaters for my Aunt and Uncle about 5 years back. It had issues from the get go, and even the Lowes appointed plumber that came to look at it said that they had been having a lot of problems with them. Thay went back to a standard water heater. That was 5 years ago, so there may be some better offerings now. I'd research as best I could before shelling out the greenbacks though.

[jvlgato]

Or move here.

Is Greenland greener than Iceland? Just seems like it should be because of its name.

you might want to consider one of the hybrid units that have a very high efficiency heat pump on the

top, and an electric heater for those high usage times. Lots less parts than the tankless types.

And completely electric, so no exhaust pipe necessary.

Those looked like the most attractive option for a while, and GE and Rheem both make such a model. But I'd have to cap the gas lines and run electric to the unit; seems like a big, although everything like that seems like a big deal to me. Also, these use room heat to heat the water, and so they blow cool air into the room, my wife was a little concerned about blowing cold air in the basement in the wiinter. Although, I could just power up the Krell!

Are you sure your current one is only 15 gallons? That seems awful small, and is probably why you run out of hot water during showers. I wouldn't bother with the tankless or high-effieciency models your looking at. Why pay $2000 for something like that when you can buy a regular gas one for $500?

Not so sure, just a number off the top of my head - could be bigger, but it is pretty small. The reason to go with one of these would be for possible cost saving and environmental. My wife is very pro- save the environment, I'm in favor of it if I'm not too inconvenienced.

Assuming you're planning on staying for the long haul, I'd look at how long it would take for you to recoup the higher initial investment for higher efficiency/tankless water heaters. CR had a article about this in 2008 and according to them, both tankless and high efficiency storage models took 15-20 years before they recouped the initial investment through annual savings. The Federal Credit will definitely offset that time period, but you'd need more efficient (i.e., more expensive) models to qualify for it, at least that was the case when we replaced our furnace.

Here's a tidbit from CR in Oct '08 in regards to maintenance issues.

True, not sure I'd save all that much. We plan to be in this house for another 20+ years, so this is for the long haul. Still, it's as much for the environment as for the money.

Our water heater is 17 years old and will be dealing with this question soon I suspect. I haven't begun the research on any of this yet. Our experience is that running out of hot water has not been an issue, even before my daughter left for college. In less than a year, we will be empty nesters, so the simple solution may be just another traditional water heater, unless there ends up being some other benefits involved.

A traditional gas water heater would be the simplest, for sure. Just wonder if there might be better options in light of some cost savings and carbon credits.

I am in the same market and keep meaning to ask Jim what he bought and how his experience has been. Takagi is another brand that has been recommended -- although dubiously -- by our contractor. He says he has replaced as many instant hot water heaters as he has installed.

Thanks - let me know if you learn anything more.

@Reks - no hot water at all? I'm just a little bit green, not crazy green!

[spritzer]

Is Greenland greener than Iceland? Just seems like it should be because of its name.

Nah, it's just great 10th century marketing...

[Augsburger]

I looked into the various models of tankless water heater options for a year before settling on the Noritz system we have now. During my research, I could not find any credible information convincing me that one particular tankless heater brand was superior to another, more important to me was whether the installer had years of experience with tankless water heaters, tankless water heater installation and how responsive the installer would be if there was a problem or the unit needed servicing. The new tankless heater replaces a 100 gallon tank gas burner heater. We have five bathrooms but we almost never have two showers or baths running at the same time, occasionally we will be running the clothes washer and one shower simultaneously. Much like a tank water heater, there is no maintenance required and nothing to replace, when the unit stops working in twenty years or so then it is time to get a new heater. Tank water heaters that we considered reported a projected lifespan of from 12 to 15 years, the tankless unit "projects" 20 years+. Now the details-

The Good

-As advertised our gas bill has dropped significantly since installing the tankless HW heater. My guess is break even on the "investment" is around four to four and one half years. California has a building code requirement for all tank water heaters requiring them to be anchored safely to a wall in the event of a earthquake, this adds $50-$75 to a tank heater installation. A tankless water heater has no tank so there is no added expense for earthquake safety.

- With the tankless WH I have now freed up a lot of space in my garage to store more junk.

- So far we have not had any issues with running out of hot water, we did occasionally with the former heater when we took back to back showers.

The Bad

-This tankless water heater much like most of the others I researched works on the principal of water flow meaning that when the hot water is turned on and starts flowing that triggers the heating coil and starts heating the water. For us this means that especially in winter when the hot water standing in the pipes in our attic has cooled down through the night, it takes three times as long for us to get hot water flowing out of the shower head than we had with the old tank water heater.

-The distance from the water heater to the kitchen sink is a rather long run so the amount of time it takes for hot water to reach the kitchen sink is ridiculous. Now since we use a dishwasher for most of the cleaning this is not a big problem but for some pots, skillets and cutlery, it is an annoying problem. We are considering an instant on under sink heater but want to wait until we remodel our kitchen or after daddy gets a new turntable.

Life is full of trade offs, for now we are OK with our choices.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Augsburger
coffee, a cookie ...bathroom break

[Dusty Chalk]

-The distance from the water heater to the kitchen sink is a rather long run so the amount of time it takes for hot water to reach the kitchen sink is ridiculous.

Do you insulate your pipes? I have found that helps, tanked or tankless.

I have to admit, I know nothing about tankless, but have wanted one and am intrigued by the notion ever since I heard of it, so will be lurking in this thread.

[tkam]

The Good

-As advertised our gas bill has dropped significantly since installing the tankless HW heater. My guess is break even on the "investment" is around four to four and one half years.

I wonder how much of a savings you'd have seen with a smaller regular gas water heater. Given I just live in a 1 and half bath townhouse but my gas bill during the summer has been like $10 a month max and I have a 40-gallon gas water heater. I'm guessing its at least decently efficient since it was installed in 2008. I can't imagine I'd see much if any savings using a tankless system.

I'm all for being green, but this seems like one of those things that sounds nice but costs a ton more up-front with no guarantee of ever saving anything. Unless it really only makes sense for a specific usage pattern? Who knows.

[aardvark baguette]

Tankless, just because.

[Aimless1]

Like many here I need to replace my hot water heater soon. I try to be as green as makes sense, but as noted by TKam going tankless doesn't make alot of sense in my case. Two empty nesters in a 1200 sq ft ranch with a high efficiency gas furnace. I spend less than $800/yr for natural gas, most of which is heat in the cold Michigan winters. Subtracting that out leaves about $200-250/yr for the water heater and the gas dryer. Not much money to play with and certainly won't realize any meaningful savings by going tankless.

I keep seeing AO Smith water heaters go highly recommended, then read owner reviews and wonder why. Apparently alot of problems with the pilot and less than responsive customer service from the manufacturer.

I'll be sticking with a tank, just haven't decide which one to buy.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Aimless1
bad typing

[grawk]

realize that people mostly post about complaints, and there are a LOT of AO Smith water heaters out there

[909]

yes, going topless is very liberating!

if you really want to be green, just get used to cold water.

or not wash at all...

[kevin gilmore]

Going green is not necessarily a cheaper route in the long run.

Witness the $700 i recently spent on upgrading my kitchen to all LED's...

I love the color and intensity of the light. I don't mind the fact that 600 watts

of halogen turned into 50 watts of LED (from the heat perspective).

I do mind that all the fancy lutron dimmers in the house had to be retrofit

with miniature switching supplys to make them work right with the led's.

And no matter what they say about the lifetime of these things, they have switchers in

them, and a big electrolytic capacitor which is not going to last even 10 years.

Yes i will be able to repair them myself, but most other people won't want to mess with them.

Same thing with the CCFL bulbs, but they are now so dirt cheap, they are throw away

items. Which is a really bad thing because of the mercury they contain.

[Augsburger]

I have yet to have a CCFL light last as long as advertised. I am glad I switched to a tankless hot water heater because I need the room freed up from not having a 100 gallon water heater tank to store the burned out CCFls and computer monitors while I am waiting for the free toxic waste disposal day here in Ventura County.

[jvlgato]

I have a bag full of CCFL bulbs awaiting proper disposal. If only I knew of a a place where I could properly dispose of them.

I'm feeling more and more like these fancy water heaters are a great idea ... for the future. They need to iron out the kinks and develop the hybrids further, and hopefully prices will come down a bit. I think my tank has some life left, and it isn't worth it to change it out now just to get the Federal Tax credit.

And tkam, you're right, my current tank is 40 gallons. Not sure where 15 came from ... that wouldn't do much, would it?.

Still interested in people's actual experiences over time, though. Thanks!

[Nebby]

I have a bag full of CCFL bulbs awaiting proper disposal. If only I knew of a a place where I could properly dispose of them.

Home depot has a CFL recycling program, though I think they only take the small lightbulb sized ones. You might be able to find a recycling program near you by using epa's recycling center listing:

Mercury-Containing Light Bulb (Lamp) Collection and Recycling Programs Where You Live | Universal Waste | US EPA

[jvlgato]

Thanks! I only have the small ones, so that is perfect!

[Aimless1]

realize that people mostly post about complaints, and there are a LOT of AO Smith water heaters out there

Agreed on both counts. I look at the nature of the complaint and resolution, if any. The reported issue is continuous failure of the pilot light on at least one AO Smith model with no permanent resolution. I haven't done due diligence with my research yet, but that is worth looking into further. I'm sure I'll find plenty of complaints about Rheem, GE & others as well.

[morphsci]

I've been meaning to post in here for a while. We had planned to replace our standard tank heater with either a hybrid or tankless system. Like Greg, my research was very equivocal regarding which system is better. It pretty much came down to finding an installer we actually trusted and had confidence in their abilities. We went through 4 different contractors coming to do an onsite visit before we finally found one we had confidence in. In our situation, the house is not huge, about 2500 sq. Ft with 2 1/2 baths. In addition the water heater is centrally located in a small closet in the house and all pipes run through interior walls. The hot water pipes also have relatively short runs to all bathrooms and the kitchen. So we will be going with a Noritz tankless system. Our installer is quite popular so this will not be happening until early summer 2011. So we have a little wait, but I would rather have a busy contractor rather than one who had plenty of time to fit us in.

[jvlgato]

So no Federal Tax credit? Better to go with someone you're comfortable with, though.

Thanks, Jim. Let us know how it goes!