Sennheiser 800: Time to go balanced. Options.

[Eric5676]

So now that I've had the Sennheiser 800s since they came out and I've been using my ever faithful Headamp GS-X, I'm thinking it's time to put this over the top and finish it.

I've been using the Cambridge 840c connected via XLRs to the Headamp for convenience even though I know that does nothing for me because I have a second source using the RCA inputs for SACD and DVD-A.

Most likely I'm going to go through Drew at Moon Audio.

A while back he had set me up with Black Dragon cables on the AKG 701s and I thought those cables that headphone out in terms of some refinement and a little bit of natural warmth which was nothing short of a miracle with those cans.

I'd stayed singled ended at the time.

I'm deliberating between his new Silver Dragon cables or Cardas. The default XLRs are Neutrik Golds which I suspect are plenty good enough otherwise an additional $125 gets me Rhodiums.

I might consider getting some 3 foot XLRs on the side since the current ones I'm using between amp and source are some no name $30 numbers I bought at a local music shop a couple of years back.

Perhaps they're good enough. I've never had any real serious complaints with my setup. I know synergy and matching up is important to a point anyways.

Here's Drew's quick breakdown of the two choices I'm considering:

The Cardas is a warm lush laid back sounding cable. It is a darker sounding cable. It will smooth things out. Thus it will warm up the sound of the HD800. If you listen to Classical I would go with it.

The Silver Dragon is a very detailed cable with excellent transient responce. It is light on it's feet with lots of air. Great sound stage and presentation of the music.

I do listen mostly to classical and film scores but I do also listen to other types of music as well.

I know Drew is going to steer me right whatever I end up doing. The wildcard could also be a source change at some point down the road if certain things fall a certain way for me.

In any event: Fire away!

[mypasswordis]

I'm going to save you the trouble of reading through a rant, but it boils down to:

- HD800 + GS-1 (and I assume GS-X) sounds pretty damn good

- lolcables

- If you have that much spare cash to spend a couple hundred on a useless cable, sell your source and get something better. Or just get something better.

[postjack]

I would go for some inexpensive quality DIY cables, rather then any of the $200 and up namebrand stuff. I've been out of the cable game for a while so I don't know who to recommend you to. does Steve do HD800 cables?

[Grahame]

Why not just re-terminate the stock HD800 cables with a 4 pin xlr adapter + then make (re use) the single ended + add 2 x 3 pin xlr ends? like some other people have done.

[nikongod]

Cut the inferiorly ended connector off of the stock cable. Solder on a superiorly ended connector.

Translated:

cut off the plug, solder on a 4-pin XLR. Build an adapter to 2X3pin if the amp you get dosnt support the right balanced dynamic headphone connector.

[postjack]

yeah do that^^^

[Nebby]

... Build an adapter to 2X3pin if the amp you get dosnt support the right balanced dynamic headphone connector.

As opposed to the left balanced dynamic headphone connector?

I also vote for the re-termination idea, the stock HD800 cable is well made.

[Eric5676]

Excellent feedback.

I knew no bunch would cut through BS for me (or even at me) faster than you guys. <- That's a pointed remark against myself, not anyone else.

I have no problems admitting that I always have plenty more to learn and that's one of the reasons I come to a forum like this.

- If you have that much spare cash to spend a couple hundred on a useless cable, sell your source and get something better. Or just get something better.

Well...not exactly. The spare cash, such as it is, would have come from something else that's not really important.

See I know I've seen discussions about cables and expensive cables and "watch out for snake oil" and stuff like that but I wasn't sure how far that went. LOL, now I do.

Thanks for not being too mean guys. Like I said: I'm here to learn. I know I have a lot to learn so I truly do appreciate the feedback.

Believe it or not: This thread's made me and my wallet VERY happy.

Definitely appreciate the suggestions for alternate and far more cost effective plans.

What/where are some good DIY outlets I should look at if I decide to get into this?

Here's a real can of worms (albeit oft repeated) I might open and also shows again that I know I have plenty to learn: Is trying to balance a set of cans even worth doing at all? I know what others say but I want to see what this crew has to say about it.

I certainly am in NO way dissatisifed with what I have at present.

http://www.head-case.org/forums/home-source-components/6264-ps-audio-perfectwave-dac-5.html#post387862

^^ Guilty as charged.

[Torpedo]

Eric, I had balanced Cardas wires for the HD800, several weeks at my place, so had plenty of time to "burn in" the wires. The amp was for the most part a Gilmore Reference balanced which is the same circuit as your GS-X. The other amp used was a Rudistor RPX-100 which I still keep due to my reluctance to sell gear, so my home seems a fookin' museum.

To make this short. Save your moneys and get a better source or if you really need to try balanced, save your moneys and convert the stock wire in a balanced one. Just my 2 cents YMMV and all that

[Eric5676]

Eric, I had balanced Cardas wires for the HD800, several weeks at my place, so had plenty of time to "burn in" the wires. The amp was for the most part a Gilmore Reference balanced which is the same circuit as your GS-X. The other amp used was a Rudistor RPX-100 which I still keep due to my reluctance to sell gear, so my home seems a fookin' museum.

LOL, nice.

To make this short. Save your moneys and get a better source or if you really need to try balanced, save your moneys and convert the stock wire in a balanced one. Just my 2 cents YMMV and all that

Suits me just fine and suits my wallet especially fine. Since my source is already balanced maybe I'll try DIYing the cans to balanced for laughs and see what's what.

If you guys really even think that's worth it and I'm halfway suspecting some of you at least don't.

[Torpedo]

Whereas I notice some differences (yet not sure if really "improvements") from using the HD600 SE or balanced, I wasn't able to find many of them on the HD800. Perhaps some sort of tighter bass, which I'm not sure is something the HD800 benefit from. What I can say for sure is that the main flaw in the HD800 doesn't get better by using balanced wires

[Eric5676]

Whereas I notice some differences (yet not sure if really "improvements") from using the HD600 SE or balanced, I wasn't able to find many of them on the HD800. Perhaps some sort of tighter bass, which I'm not sure is something the HD800 benefit from. What I can say for sure is that the main flaw in the HD800 doesn't get better by using balanced wires

What would you consider the main flaw?

[Torpedo]

Ha, I had that coming IMO it's a tendency to make the treble a bit strident, not really bright as in the 701, D5000 or some Grados, but not completely smooth and coherent. This makes for an astonishing sound when recording quality is excellent, but for a fatiguing one when recordings are average.

Not that you asked, but the second main flaw IMHO is the "too big to be true" stage which shows on every recording. Not as fake and unnatural as in the 701, but in that vein. Going balanced kind of makes that a bit worse.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Torpedo
Correcting orthography :palm:

[nikongod]

What/where are some good DIY outlets I should look at if I decide to get into this?

Re terminated stock HD800 cables come up second hand on HF from time to time. As another idea: perhaps you could arrange a swap+a few dollars on your side with someone who got an HD800 with a balanced cable they dont need.

If you want to DIY it, practice on small & cheap stuff first if I'm interpreting your request correctly (noob). Once you get the hang of it, the HD800 cable is only a tiny bit harder than other cables to work with.

Here's a real can of worms (albeit oft repeated) I might open and also shows again that I know I have plenty to learn: Is trying to balance a set of cans even worth doing at all? I know what others say but I want to see what this crew has to say about it.

50/50

If you have an amp that works better balanced (balanced OTL tube amps, a bunch of SS amps, etc) go for it! At the very least its reasonably reversible - you can always plug a balanced headphone into an SE amp with an adapter.

If you have a SE amp you are legitimately happy with even after comparing it to others dont change it. SE amps can sound very nice.

[Eric5676]

Ha, I had that coming IMO it's a tendency to make the treble a bit strident, not really bright as in the 701, D5000 or some Grados, but not completely smooth and coherent. This makes for an astonishing sound when recording quality is excellent, but for a fatiguing one when recordings are average.

Not that you asked, but the second main flaw IMHO is the "too big to be true" stage which shows on every recording. Not as fake and unnatural as in the 701, but in that vein. Going balanced kind of makes that a bit worse.

Interesting.

I'll partially agree with you on that treble although I've only noticed it a little on "less than great" recordings and it's (for me) a small enough quibble that I've just dismissed on the recording.

I love the soundstage and imaging with these things. No negative there for me. Keep in mind: My previous cans were the AKG 701s and I know what you're talking about there with those!

If you want to DIY it, practice on small & cheap stuff first if I'm interpreting your request correctly (noob). Once you get the hang of it, the HD800 cable is only a tiny bit harder than other cables to work with.

50/50

If you have an amp that works better balanced (balanced OTL tube amps, a bunch of SS amps, etc) go for it! At the very least its reasonably reversible - you can always plug a balanced headphone into an SE amp with an adapter.

If you have a SE amp you are legitimately happy with even after comparing it to others dont change it. SE amps can sound very nice.

Yes, I would be a complete noob on the DIY stuff (and some other things) as I'm sure this thread quickly and painfully advertised. I know the GS-X has kicked all kinds of ass for me in SE mode and I'd just be curious just to see what full balanced would sound like with it since I already have a balanced source ready to go in the form of the aforementioned 840c.

I'm more than pleased to know that I can explore that avenue without passing a kidney stone or worse.

Sidenote: Since I'm getting educated today and I didn't want to derail another thread with what might have been mistaken as a troll post: Those Audeze headphones...FOTM or real deal? I've never heard of that brand but of course, this thread quickly testifies that me not having heard of the brand isn't worth very much. Seeing a lot of buzz on Head-Fi and even here.

[Dusty Chalk]

...

- lolcables

- ...Or just get something better.

QFF.

[Eric5676]

QFF.

Yup, I got the message.

[Torpedo]

fail for the cables or the something better?

Eric, keep in mind you're an avid classical listener, so "average" means a way better recording quality than on pop/rock stuff. For classical music the HD800 and the GS/Ref is a great pairing.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Torpedo

[Asr]

My opinion of "going balanced" is: don't bother unless you have a source that you really, really like. If the 840C meets that criteria for you, then why not. HD800 benefits from balanced in my experience but as already pointed out, not every sonic "improvement" will necessarily make it sound better to you - the typical sonic attributes I've heard comparing SE vs balanced on headphones in general have been improved clarity in bass (and clarity overall) and faster impulse response, but there's also a sort of soundstage expansion that might not be ideal on the HD800. As for cables I have a more positive opinion of it than say MPI and the only vendors I'd buy from would be Moon Audio, APureSound, or Enigma.

My position is cables last - optimize every other part of the system first and then when you have everything where you want it, then do cables. If you're not at that point, then get there.

[Icarium]

I'd frankly suggest switching headphones too. I don't think the HD800 is by any means the best you can be doing for your money. For roughly the same money or less with a dynamid amp I prefer LCD-2s and AD2000s. Of course if you find the hd800 superior to these then our tastes differ so much that there's nothing valuable I can contribute to your decision making process.

[Eric5676]

I'd frankly suggest switching headphones too. I don't think the HD800 is by any means the best you can be doing for your money. For roughly the same money or less with a dynamid amp I prefer LCD-2s and AD2000s. Of course if you find the hd800 superior to these then our tastes differ so much that there's nothing valuable I can contribute to your decision making process.

There's no way I could know up or down without firsthand trial of some sort. I'd have to at least start out with an obvious question: What are your tastes? I'm looking at your profile and see someone that's light years ahead of me on gear across the boards. Obviously with a background like that I'm going to be looking at your recommendations and thinking to myself: "Yeah, I need to find a way to try those things out."

After that, I'm seeing the title below your screen name and I still haven't wrapped my brain fully around the mess that ended up being. Wow.

All I know is that I do think the 800s are awfully damned good.

[blessingx]

Have been considering picking up the HD800s again. Almost pulled the trigger last night. Still my favorite full-sized dynamic all-rounders, so I'd ask if you want a phone for everything or one that can excel, but also fail, more often (K1000, AD2000, etc.)?

Edited September 11, 2010 by blessingx

[Eric5676]

Have been considering picking up the HD800s again. Almost pulled the trigger last night. Still my favorite full-sized dynamic all-rounders, so I'd ask if you want a phone for everything or one that can excel, but also fail, more often (K1000, AD2000, etc.)?

I think I'm probably best where I'm at right now with the 800s. I seriously doubt I could find appreciably better without probably having to go into electrostats and really expensive stuff like that. I'm not prepared to do that especially when I've seen a number of impressions from people that suggested that the 800s at least hung respectably in the ballpark with those uber expensive setups. That's good enough for me.

When you get up in these kinds of price ranges I don't think there's a such thing as a "bad" headphone vs. like what you're saying: Excel in one/some ways and fail in others.

[postjack]

i still got love for the HD800, though my listening impressions are limited to canjam '09. same with the LCD-2, I only listened at canjam '10, but man those were great listening experiences.

no need to rush the journey, but at some point consider listening to the Stax OII. if i could ever get them to fit my big head properly they would be the end all phone for me (for the record I did own these for a time).

in terms of the going balanced argument, great advice from Asr regarding the source. sharing purely from my own experience, the big problem with terminating your cans and going balanced is that you limit yourself to sources with XLR outs, and then you get into the whole "well is this source TRULY balanced argument" (i.e. the Sony SCD-1, but why anyone would want that as a source now is beyond me, but it does have the most badass cd loading mechanism of all time) out of every damn source you consider. It sucks to have to eliminate a source you really want just because it doesn't have XLR outs. then of course is the added cost of have to purchase a balanced amp, but you are already there with the GS-X.

Personally I have experienced benefit with a balanced HD-650, not so much with a balanced RS-1. In the end I'm not hardcore enough to go all balanced. The added cost, limitation of component options, and having to cut up all my headphone cables just don't make the benefit worth it. Having said that, that is just my experience, and I begrudge no one who chooses to go balanced and hopefully eek out some more performance from their rig.

[Eric5676]

no need to rush the journey, but at some point consider listening to the Stax OII. if i could ever get them to fit my big head properly they would be the end all phone for me (for the record I did own these for a time).

Don't get me wrong: I'd LOVE to hear those.

If I wanted to check something like that out, where and how could I do it? Meets?

Where can you even buy those, if at all?

in terms of the going balanced argument, great advice from Asr regarding the source. sharing purely from my own experience, the big problem with terminating your cans and going balanced is that you limit yourself to sources with XLR outs, and then you get into the whole "well is this source TRULY balanced argument" (i.e. the Sony SCD-1, but why anyone would want that as a source now is beyond me, but it does have the most badass cd loading mechanism of all time) out of every damn source you consider. It sucks to have to eliminate a source you really want just because it doesn't have XLR outs. then of course is the added cost of have to purchase a balanced amp, but you are already there with the GS-X.

Personally I have experienced benefit with a balanced HD-650, not so much with a balanced RS-1. In the end I'm not hardcore enough to go all balanced. The added cost, limitation of component options, and having to cut up all my headphone cables just don't make the benefit worth it. Having said that, that is just my experience, and I begrudge no one who chooses to go balanced and hopefully eek out some more performance from their rig.

Agreed. It really seems hit and miss with debatable gains. You can get XLR to SE adapters for those times when you need to connect to a "normal" headphone jack but that's just more money on cables.