The Cutlery Thread

[cetoole]

Anything a bit cheaper than the Tojiro that is still decent, and what size and profile is best for general kitchen duty if you are only gonna buy one? Looking at R H Forschner right now. Definitely less sexy than forged japanese steel, but I really just want something that can cut pretty well and not need to be sharpened all the time.

[jinp6301]

I remember the Amazon.com: Victorinox Cutlery10-Inch Chef's Knife, Black Fibrox Handle: Kitchen & Dining (or was it the 8 inch) being very highly rated by cooks illustrated for a cheap chef's knife.

[cetoole]

I was looking at the 8" version of that knife specifically.

[jinp6301]

I'll probably get one when I'm at school. Let me know if you get one.

[shellylh]

i can believe them chipping on bread with a hard crust if some torsion is applied. personally, i would get the regular DP over the powdered steel version. which is did.

Do you know what is the difference between the DP and the DP Damascus, besides the Damascus looking cooler and being slightly more expensive?

[aerius]

Shelly, the Tojiro uses VG-10 steel which is a very hard steel, harder than most of the mall brand cutlery like Henckels ow Wostuf. I find it hard to believe someone can chip a Vg-10 blade while cutting bread unless they were cutting the bread on their radiator.

Hardness doesn't have much to do with chipping, chipping is related mostly to the toughness of the steel and how brittle it is. Generally speaking, harder steels tend to be more brittle and prone to chipping, while being more wear resistant and allowing shallower edge angles for better sharpness and cutting performance. VG-10 at a Rockwell C hardness of 62 is definitely pushing it a bit, the optimum is around 60-61 and above that it starts getting brittle.

Personally speaking, I'd tend to shy away from stainless steels once I get above 60-61 on the Rockwell C scale. Above that hardness, stainless gets too brittle for my tastes and I'd want to go with the non-stainless carbon steels.

[Dusty Chalk]

Do you know what is the difference between the DP and the DP Damascus, besides the Damascus looking cooler and being slightly more expensive?

I'll let those more experienced talk specific points, but if it's real, Damascus steel is not just about looks. (I don't know if anyone does real Damascus steel though.)

[shellylh]

OK, I see that the Damascus blade has a "cobalt alloy core sandwiched between 37 layers of stainless steel" and the regular DP is cobalt alloy core sandwiched between 2 layers of ss. I am just not sure what effect this will have on the knife when cutting.

[Augsburger]

Hardness doesn't have much to do with chipping, chipping is related mostly to the toughness of the steel and how brittle it is. Generally speaking, harder steels tend to be more brittle and prone to chipping, while being more wear resistant and allowing shallower edge angles for better sharpness and cutting performance. VG-10 at a Rockwell C hardness of 62 is definitely pushing it a bit, the optimum is around 60-61 and above that it starts getting brittle.

Personally speaking, I'd tend to shy away from stainless steels once I get above 60-61 on the Rockwell C scale. Above that hardness, stainless gets too brittle for my tastes and I'd want to go with the non-stainless carbon steels.

"Brittle" is relative, we are talking bread here. Perhaps we are also talking semantics since I am well aware that hard knives can be brittle just as stainless steel knives are softer due to the chromium content which allows them to flex quite a bit. This soft/flexing is also the reason SS knives tend to lose their edge faster than a hard high carbon content knife. Nonetheless, be it hard crust or not, I find it difficult to believe a well made VG10 blade would chip when slicing a roll per the number of posts claiming so (per Shelly). If someone is indeed slicing a hard roll I fail to see where there would be a torque issue which is usually what you have when a blade chips. From my limited experience chipping is most prevalent when someone hits a dense bone or tries to hack through something frozen. Or am I missing something here, which is entirely possible?

[shellylh]

Maybe there was a chisel in the bread?

[Dusty Chalk]

I suspect that metallurgy has advanced sufficiently that any benefit Damascus steel had over its contemporaries have long since been overshadowed, but being as there is a market for it (if manufactured [the market, I mean]), I wouldn't be surprised if some old school Williamsburg type didn't try to recreate the process -- if mostly for aesthetics.

[shellylh]

about exactly approximately none.

OK

[shellylh]

Usually I am not so fond of approximations, but it'll do.

[Dusty Chalk]

but it was an exact approximation!

An exact approximation would include deviation.

[diebenkorn]

Onwards towards spoons

</title> <title>Joshua McGee's Shrine for the World's Best Wooden Spoon

[aerius]

"Brittle" is relative, we are talking bread here. Perhaps we are also talking semantics since I am well aware that hard knives can be brittle just as stainless steel knives are softer due to the chromium content which allows them to flex quite a bit. This soft/flexing is also the reason SS knives tend to lose their edge faster than a hard high carbon content knife. Nonetheless, be it hard crust or not, I find it difficult to believe a well made VG10 blade would chip when slicing a roll per the number of posts claiming so (per Shelly). If someone is indeed slicing a hard roll I fail to see where there would be a torque issue which is usually what you have when a blade chips. From my limited experience chipping is most prevalent when someone hits a dense bone or tries to hack through something frozen. Or am I missing something here, which is entirely possible?

My guess is the chipping happened on impact with the cutting board, or maybe the person was cutting bread on a ceramic plate.

With regards to stainless steels, if they were hardened to the same hardness as a carbon steel blade, the stainless blade would be far more brittle. Go the the Crucible Steel site and pull up the spec sheets for S30V which is about as tough as stainless gets and M2 or M4 tool steel, then look at the Charpy numbers. Even at a higher hardness, the tool steels remain tougher. It's possible to harden some stainless steels all the way to 64 HRC, but then the damn thing would be as brittle as glass and it'll chip if you look at it wrong. This is why stainless steels top out at 60-61, though some will push it to 62 which allows crisper edges but at the expense of toughness. With a non-stainless steel the hardness can be pushed all the way up to the 64-65 range while still having better toughness and resistance to chipping than a stainless at 61. This means much thinner & sharper high performance edges are possible with non-stainless steels without worrying about chipping.

[Augsburger]

I have learned more in this thread than three years of reading Head-Fi. Sorry, comparing any thread to Head-Fi is an indirect insult to said thread.

[aerius]

carbon can of course be harder and tougher. for metal used in food preparation, it has its downsides.

Unfortunately it does. However, if you're obssessive enough about cleaning & drying the knives and you're not cutting lemons or something like that, you can get away with a carbon steel knife for kitchen use. It'll develop a patina over time though.

[aerius]

Same thing here, I'm lazy with my kitchen knives. All my knives are stainless except for a cleaver since that one takes a ton of abuse. It gets hacked through bone and half frozen meat all the time so toughness is more important than anything else.

[Iron_Dreamer]

All I know is that M4 certainly has my respect. It's a bitch to sharpen, but it hell if it doesn't outperform all my S30v and D2 blades in terms of holding a really nice edge with no maintenance.

[tyrion]

I'm going to buy and new knife, I'm going to buy and new knife, I'm going to buy and new knife, I'm going to buy and new knife, I'm going to buy and new knife, I'm going to buy and new knife, I'm going to buy and new knife...