Has the DAC landscape gotten convoluted lately?

[Superpredator]

Around the time I first joined over there it seems like there were fewer choices in DACs. Benchmark and Lavry seemed to be the go-to options, though there were certainly other contenders: Apogee, HeadRoom, Grace, Bel Canto, Monarchy, Channel Islands, and others, as well as various experiments in NOS: Ack!, Lite, etc. Then came Zhaolu, and it seemed to usher in a new micro-era of willingness to tread away from the beaten path. Audio-GD's extensive DAC lineup is a good example of the proliferation of options these days. I really have no sense for what the standouts are anymore (among similarly priced products). I'm not sure review reading is terribly illuminating, since people usually seem to have less experience with DACs than amps. Can you throw a rock and hit a good one?

[manaox2]

Around the time I first joined over there it seems like there were fewer choices in DACs. Benchmark and Lavry seemed to be the go-to options, though there were certainly other contenders: Apogee, HeadRoom, Grace, Bel Canto, Monarchy, Channel Islands, and others, as well as various experiments in NOS: Ack!, Lite, etc. Then came Zhaolu, and it seemed to usher in a new micro-era of willingness to tread away from the beaten path. Audio-GD's extensive DAC lineup is a good example of the proliferation of options these days. I really have no sense for what the standouts are anymore (among similarly priced products). I'm not sure review reading is terribly illuminating, since people usually seem to have less experience with DACs than amps. Can you throw a rock and hit a good one?

Reading only goes so far with all audio gear, but it does help. Read some other forums to get a broader idea, don't limit yourself. Find people with experience you can understand and trust a little. Going to meets, retailers, and/or buying/trying/selling what you don't like is a more viable strategy if you have those options. Try to form an idea of what sound really floors you by contaminating yourself with the best stuff possible before you judge, it helps to gain experience yourself.

/enabler

[swt61]

Nah, the only DAC that matters is the Buffalo II.

[Asr]

Can you throw a rock and hit a good one?

No but you could probably hit a DAC-shilling ignoramus. I'd suggest not taking the advice of almost anyone over at HF because let's face it, most of them are either shills or recommend substandard gear solely because that's all they have experience with. I would also recommend staying away from Audio-GD stuff, just because it's constantly shilled to the hilt by IPodBJ, as if he's their spokesperson (which he certainly acts like).

DACs that the HC collective usually recommends are made by Parasound, Assemblage, and Sonic Frontiers, if you don't mind vintage stuff from the 90s. DIY is also a good solution I've heard.

[Dusty Chalk]

Around the time I first joined over there it seems like there were fewer choices in DACs.

Keyword there is 'seem' -- there were always a plethora of DACses, but fewer FOTMses (flavors of the month). Now there just seems to be more.

Can you throw a rock and hit a good one?

Yes, pretty much.

Seriously -- the questions are: how good is your hearing, and where is the point of diminished returns for you? I have found that most material sounds pretty much the same out of a several hundred dollar DAC and a several thousand dollar DAC, so my point is somewhere less than a thousand. I might pay more for additional functionality (Cambridge Audio 840c seems like a bargain, considering what it does), but unless I win the lottery, I just can't bring myself to 'dew et'.

The only way to do this -- the only way, those that claim they can tell good from bad in a short listen are lying -- is to somehow arrange for an audition in your own system for a weeks-long period of time. This is usually done by actually purchasing the item. I have found that my best bet is to purchase used, and sell used, that way there's minimal financial outlay to me. (I consider shipping and any loss of value the price I pay for the in-home audition.)

Sure, one can look at the specs and the reviews -- how else are you going to determine which ones to audition -- but ultimately you have to hear it for yourself to decide for yourself.

[Superpredator]

Reading only goes so far with all audio gear, but it does help. Read some other forums to get a broader idea, don't limit yourself. Find people with experience you can understand and trust a little. Going to meets, retailers, and/or buying/trying/selling what you don't like is a more viable strategy if you have those options. Try to form an idea of what sound really floors you by contaminating yourself with the best stuff possible before you judge, it helps to gain experience yourself.

/enabler

Keyword there is 'seem' -- there were always a plethora of DACses, but fewer FOTMses (flavors of the month). Now there just seems to be more.

Yes, pretty much.

Seriously -- the questions are: how good is your hearing, and where is the point of diminished returns for you? I have found that most material sounds pretty much the same out of a several hundred dollar DAC and a several thousand dollar DAC, so my point is somewhere less than a thousand. I might pay more for additional functionality (Cambridge Audio 840c seems like a bargain, considering what it does), but unless I win the lottery, I just can't bring myself to 'dew et'.

The only way to do this -- the only way, those that claim they can tell good from bad in a short listen are lying -- is to somehow arrange for an audition in your own system for a weeks-long period of time. This is usually done by actually purchasing the item. I have found that my best bet is to purchase used, and sell used, that way there's minimal financial outlay to me. (I consider shipping and any loss of value the price I pay for the in-home audition.)

Sure, one can look at the specs and the reviews -- how else are you going to determine which ones to audition -- but ultimately you have to hear it for yourself to decide for yourself.

Good advice. I didn't make it clear, but I'm not actually in the market for a new DAC, as I'm pretty satisfied with the M24 I've been running for the last few years. Of course, contentment didn't stop me from impulse buying a new amp, so you never know. I try to stay on top of new gear, and I feel like I have a decent sense for amps, since their design usually corresponds with the headphones they should be paired with. DACs don't really offer such clues; they tend to either be very capable, capable or half-capable. I was able to note pretty obvious differences in the DACs I've owned, but I'd never try to match them with phones the way I do with amps. It's usually clear when you've got a headphone/amp match/mismatch, and I think this makes it simpler for people to comprehend and communicate what it is they're hearing. Not so easy with DACs. When people talk about DACs, the best DAC they've heard is the best DAC ever... for very few communicable reasons. It gets pretty nebulous, and useless. I should organize another Philadelphia meet and demand moar DACs.

No but you could probably hit a DAC-shilling ignoramus. I'd suggest not taking the advice of almost anyone over at HF because let's face it, most of them are either shills or recommend substandard gear solely because that's all they have experience with. I would also recommend staying away from Audio-GD stuff, just because it's constantly shilled to the hilt by IPodBJ, as if he's their spokesperson (which he certainly acts like).

DACs that the HC collective usually recommends are made by Parasound, Assemblage, and Sonic Frontiers, if you don't mind vintage stuff from the 90s. DIY is also a good solution I've heard.

Exactly. The Source forum over there is filled with that kind of noise--threads that go on forever about how amazing a DAC is, with very few pauses to compare it to anything else. Unless they're all equally amazing, something doesn't smell right. I can't understand Audio-GD's huge lineup at all. It seems masturbatory. How about offering one or two DACs that you believe in completely?

A little vintage would be nice. I hate that people seem to expect audio technology to advance at the same rate as computers and cell phones--always looking to buy something new, shunning the old. Such a retarded habit.

Nah, the only DAC that matters is the Buffalo II.

I have had my eye on that one.

[postjack]

I like what DC said.

my budget threshold has always been <$1000, so I read a few reviews, read some impressions, then from that pool of generally well received sources I choose a DAC based on two more things: 1) features and 2) does it give me that "feel-good" DAC sensation? when I read reviews do my brain electrons tingle and say "yes this is the one"?

so while I truly do love the sound of my Quad CDP-2, I also like that it just makes me happy to own it. doesn't hurt that the rest of my gear is Quad of course.

to more directly answer the OP's query, yes I feel like the DAC market is way more saturated then it was 5 years ago. and I agree that most of your $500-$1000 DACS are probably at least pretty good.

I really like the looks of this Peachtree Decco2.

[dreamwhisper]

Yeah most rocks I throw seem to have missed the 'good sounding' dac's.

I think this is mostly because the whole mid-fi DAC market (say ~$500-1500) is either too similar, or just simply different flavors on the same theme.

Is the sound much improved moving from an EMU 0404 to a Bel Canto DAC3?

With dynamics it really depends on the equipment you're using. I wish I could provide more perspective now that I've gone 'stat.

That being said, I doubt you could go wrong with the Buffalo II.

[K3cT]

I have good experience with Audio-gd's products but I suppose IpodBJ's shilling will forever taint the name here. Customer service is top notch, price is competitive and all their higher end DACs use the R2R PCM1704UK.

[atothex]

My whole take on it is that most of the new shit is garbage. So that's easy. Don't buy them.

[kirkwall]

I have a Decco in my office and like it a lot as a DAC; less so as a one-piece in my setup. But I'm starting to suspect that I've got a tin ear -- over the past week or so I've had several CDPs and DACs in-house in two different systems (Sugden/Harbeth and Cary/Merlin) and I've had trouble finding sweeping difference between front ends. Granted, these likely qualify as mid-fi or aspirational high-end (Bryston, Primare, PS Audio, CA) but I expected to hear the marked differences I read about on some forums. I have no doubt that better or more discerning listeners can pick these up easily, but I found myself reduced to pretty basic descriptors "uh, flatter... brighter... softer" by way of IDing meaningful distinctions. With speakers it seems a whole lot clearer; amps too.

My ears are probably worse than they were, but I seem to recall that CDPs/DACs once sounded more different from one another -- perhaps they have converged, or I haven't heard the really good ones. At any rate, I'd definitely look into some of the older heavyweights, or something newer that's cost-effective and flexible. I'd love to hear a Buffalo -- heard nothing but good things about them. If I wasn't such a DIY lummox, I'd get in the queue.

best,

k

[wgb113]

I should organize another Philadelphia meet and demand moar DACs.

I'd be down wit dat!

[Knuckledragger]

I have nothing to contribute to this thread other than to agree with Posty about the Quad 99 CDP-2. For some reason it mates really well with these powered speakers I have...

[Currawong]

The Audio-gd DACs are fine and, IMO, the PCM1704UK-based DACs are good value. The designer is completely genuine and not just yet another person trying to make an eBay DAC from a generic design. I'd have hoped that someone here with a lot of experience and a good speaker rig would at least have given one of them a shot instead of just dismissing them because of one person.

I agree most of the differences in DACs involves splitting hairs and it's probably hard to make a bad choice. Indeed avoid recommendations from people who have not compared it to anything else.

[rogue]

With the proliferation of PC-based audio, I think the concept of a 'pure' CD player is dying, which is why we are seeing more and more DACs at all possible price points. Of course this means that there is a lot of crap out there, but I think it also means that there are plenty of good DACs out there, possibly more than before. The hard part, as always, is separating the wheat from the chaff.

[The Monkey]

Curra, audio-gd needs to do a loaner program.

[aardvark baguette]

With the proliferation of PC-based audio, I think the concept of a 'pure' CD player is dying, which is why we are seeing more and more DACs at all possible price points. Of course this means that there is a lot of crap out there, but I think it also means that there are plenty of good DACs out there, possibly more than before. The hard part, as always, is separating the wheat from the chaff.

CD players are outdated, so they are back in style!

My Sony sounds at least as good as my old dac at half the price.

I really like the way a CD player kind of forces you to listen to entire albums. Its a more 'disciplined' experience, whereas thousands of songs on tap from a PC leads to schizophrenic audio crack sessions.

YMMV

[n_maher]

CD players are outdated, so they are back in style!

My Sony sounds at least as good as my old dac at half the price.

I really like the way a CD player kind of forces you to listen to entire albums. Its a more 'disciplined' experience, whereas thousands of songs on tap from a PC leads to schizophrenic audio crack sessions.

YMMV

I used to be a song listener but I've become more and more of an album listener. Even when listening to exclusively PC based audio I still cue up a whole album and sometimes even an entire artist's library.

As far as DAC's go (and other equipment for that matter) I seem to be trending vintage rather than bleeding edge. My soldering rig now contains nothing built within the last decade.

[Currawong]

Curra, audio-gd needs to do a loaner program.

I actually had the idea to suggest one before, but the negativity towards them put me off suggesting it. If someone in the States is seriously interested in managing it, Kingwa would probably be up for it.

[ktm]

I've always been an album listener. It's a habit that also includes getting up and moving around every 20 minutes(side flip).

But going to cd, then to a pc source changes things. You find yourself listening more, and searching less, as well as reading less.

Remember looking at cover art, inside goodies, etc.?

Part of the problem is there's nowhere to listen to a DAC other than a meet.

It all becomes a leap of faith. And most people don't have the time or money to sort through them, so they buy one and stick with it.

There's the few that flip through them one after another. That's where the product knowledge comes from, but it's

neither cheap or easy. By the time a DAC shows up used so you can try and re-sell it without taking a beating, there's 20 more to try.

[forbigger]

i noticed that Neko Audio seems dont have any love over at HF despite Wes Miao heavy advertising with the site. Its a fine DAC ,beat the hell out of the mainstream DAC (Lavry, Benchmark). I hope his business didn't go downhill....

[NekoAudio]

i noticed that Neko Audio seems dont have any love over at HF despite Wes Miao heavy advertising with the site. Its a fine DAC ,beat the hell out of the mainstream DAC (Lavry, Benchmark). I hope his business didn't go downhill....

I'm still here. I stopped posting much over there because it was hard to keep up and sometimes the threads got a little out of hand. The majority of my customer base has mid- to high-end speaker setups rather than headphones.

I'll be at Can Jam 2010 again. Stop by if you happen to be going. I'm going to be using the Donald North Audio Sonett this time around.

[K3cT]

Wes, I've heard forbigger's DA100 and it sounds pretty amazing. I just have a comment: have you considered adding an USB input? That's going to make your DAC a lot more attractive and flexible.

[NekoAudio]

Wes, I've heard forbigger's DA100 and it sounds pretty amazing. I just have a comment: have you considered adding an USB input? That's going to make your DAC a lot more attractive and flexible.

USB input is one of the most requested features. Right now I don't have anything in the pipeline, sorry.

[regal]

DACs that the HC collective usually recommends are made by Parasound, Assemblage, and Sonic Frontiers, if you don't mind vintage stuff from the 90s. DIY is also a good solution I've heard.

Sonif Frontiers I find overated. Assemblage are fantastic but unobtainable. Sold a Pass D1 after hearing an AudioGD, not saying I wouldn't trade it for an assemblage but the AudioGD's are better than the S-D opamp clones out there. If you want to talk Shill, the whole OriTech Zahlou was the most over shilled over priced DAC in history. You can literally build the same thing with a $75 ebay board and a $25 PCB from Ray's audio shop.