diebenkorn Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 I have the Le'Lit and it is a good machine I could never get a really great cup consistently but I don't know if that was the machine (never tried any others) or my own shortcomings, lord knowz I tried and one day may try again. Those zassenhauses are great but I eventually went to the mazzer mini. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
episiarch Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 FWIW I really only started getting high-quality shots on a consistent basis when I started getting really consistent in my dose. Weighing helped enormously - the difference between a 17.5g, an 18g and and an 18.5g dose in my machine is substantial - but this is easier in my setup than in most people's. Assuming you're using fresh beans and a good grinder and are decently consistent in your grind and tamp, I'd suggest figuring out next how you can tighten up your dosing parameters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beefy Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 If you're looking at the really low end of espresso machines, the only advice I can give is that it's pretty much all "15 bar hurr" thermoblock crap. These do not make anything you could call espresso, and they also universally suck at steaming milk properly. The cheapest "real" espresso machine is probably something like the Le'Lit PL-041. I had a cheap 15bar thermoblock machine back home that I got fantastic coffee from. If you try to do it 'properly' I can see you would be disappointed, but with a bit of trial and error, and what some elite folk would consider no-nos, you can get good and reliable results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diebenkorn Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 FWIW I really only started getting high-quality shots on a consistent basis when I started getting really consistent in my dose. Weighing helped enormously - the difference between a 17.5g, an 18g and and an 18.5g dose in my machine is substantial - but this is easier in my setup than in most people's. Assuming you're using fresh beans and a good grinder and are decently consistent in your grind and tamp, I'd suggest figuring out next how you can tighten up your dosing parameters. Thanks for the recommendations I did all that but I find it easier to use around 14 grams per shot (find 18 to be too much). I was using beans form Intellegentsia (awesome stuff) and Terroir but reading that your in the UK those dont mean dingos kidneys to you. I may break out the machine again and try again (cleaning the machine and the grinder aqfter the shot was always my kyrptonite) I ended up drinking more Turkish style anyway which I find to incredible and less hassle though you need a a grinder that will grind the beans fine enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
episiarch Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 No, no, I'm from the USA. Just living in Britain right now. I know Intelligentsia's beans very well, and I've heard of Terroir though I haven't tried them. If you have a clean machine, good beans, good grinder, equipment and technique I have no idea why you're not getting a terrific shot. I agree Turkish is tasty though. Haven't made it in a while. Any tips? Do you use the foam-three-times-then-settle system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torpedo Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 My favorite ones are the lever models by La Pavoni but are very expensive and not very practical. A friend has one, so I know first hand how good is the espresso they make. More affordable are the Saeco, though not sure in US/Canada. The Aroma is quite basic, affordable, makes good espresso... I'm owning one for 3 years without any problems: I purchased a DeLonghi and returned it. It didn't make espresso but just regular coffe, looks like it didn't have a decent pump, just allowed the boiling water to pass through the coffee. It also seemed not very well constructed. Gaggia machines are cool too, I've seen them and tasted their coffee on many bars and cafes here, but never tried any home use model. I guess they must be expensive too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_McBob Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 More affordable are the Saeco, though not sure in US/Canada. The Aroma is quite basic, affordable, makes good espresso... I'm owning one for 3 years without any problems. Let me revise my earlier statement about the cheapest setup for making real espresso: I should have mentioned the Saeco Aroma (also known as Starbucks Barista, but not sold by Strarbucks anymore). This is really, really absolutely the cheapest machine you should buy if you want to make espresso. It is a proper pump/boiler machine. A thermoblock "15 bar" steam toy will never product anything other than strong (and bitter) coffee. The Aroma is perfectly capable of making "espresso". However, if you want to make good espresso with it, ditch the pressurized portafilter for a $40 regular portafilter, and swap the frothing aid steam wand for a $22 Rancilio Silvia steam wand so you have a hope of making microfoam. You should also learn about temperature surfing a single boiler machine. The Aroma seems to be going for $275-$350 now, so after you add the necessary parts to get the same functionality, the price isn't much different from the Lelit PL-041 I mentioned earlier as the cheapest machine to consider. The good news is that there a number of refurb black Aromas on eBay for $120-140. Spend $60 on some parts, and you have an espresso machine for only $180. This machine must be paired with a good grinder. If you can afford to spend another $430, then please buy a Baratza Vario. I want to emphasize again how much more important the grinder is than the machine, once you have something at least capable of producing espresso. If you don't want to spend that much on a grinder right now, the best cheap grinder is a hand grinder. You can get a new Kyocera ceramic hand grinder for only $75. This is perfectly adequate for making espresso, and will outperform inexpensive electric grinders. The bad news: 200 cranks for a double. You've been meaning to work out, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
episiarch Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 Gaggia machines are cool too, I've seen them and tasted their coffee on many bars and cafes here, but never tried any home use model. I guess they must be expensive too.Gaggia machines start under $250 for the Evolution model. That model is as technically proficient as my $500 retail (I got it for less) Gaggia Classic - same boiler/heater, same pump, same grouphead - it just doesn't have the automatic pressure-relief valve to dump excess water after the shot. A convenience feature but not a necessity. Also the case is plastic and (by reputation) sometimes other componentry like the panel switches on the plastic Gaggias aren't as long-lasting as on the higher models. But my old plastic Carezza (low-end machine that was replaced by the Evolution) saw a lot of use at my hands and those of the previous owner, and held up just fine. The really salient point, though, is what you mentioned: Gaggia makes machines for bars and caf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
episiarch Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 I've never used the Saeco Aroma nor the Kyocera hand grinder, but I'm in complete agreement with Bob on most points. A grinder is to espresso what an amp is to headphones. To get good results you must have a good one. They no more all grind the same than all amplifiers sound the same.Steam toys (no pump or weak pump) don't do the job. Basically they make moka pot coffee but with more parts to get dirty, go wrong, and break. (As I posted earlier there is nothing wrong with moka pot coffee, but it's not the same beverage as espresso. If you want moka pot coffee you are better off with a simple, reliable, easy to clean and inexpensive moka pot to start out with.)Nix on the pressurized portafilter, the crema-aid insert, or whatever other name these accessories go under these days. They are all basically gimmicks intended to make it look like you're getting a proper crema-topped cup of tasty espresso when really you're not. (FWIW Gaggia comes with a regular portafilter as stock, no upgrade needed.)What he said about adding a Silvia wand goes for Gaggia machines too. If you want high-quality milk drinks, plan on the wand upgrade as part of your total budget. However I wouldn't call grinding by hand a workout. It's not even effort, even first thing in the morning when I haven't had my coffee yet . It's not crunching gravel into sand, it's just shaving wee slivers off of roasted coffee beans with suitably sharp burrs. It does take a lot of turns* (I never manage to keep count but I'm estimating more like 300 turns for my 18g dose in a Zass), but it's easy. I imagine the Kyocera's super sharp ceramic burrs would make it even easier. *(This being Head-Case I think I'm supposed to insert an obligatory comparison to some other solitary manual activity here, but do I really gotta?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
episiarch Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 One more post: this just in.MISS SILVIA IN RED LEATHER! Limited edition. To hell with the budget. Edit: turns out it's fake leather. But still. Pretty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_McBob Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 However I wouldn't call grinding by hand a workout. Probably not the best choice of words. It's not a huge amount of effort, but it's enough to be annoying. $350 worth of annoyance? That's up to you I'm considering getting one of the Kyoceras to use with a cheap machine at work. I'm biased against cranks, anyway. This is me at work every couple months (minus breeches and hat): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oogabooga Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 I am no aficionado, but I do drink a lot of espresso (about three a day) from my Nespresso machine. I'm not going to say that it tastes as good as a real espresso, but I do really like about four (of the 16) roasts they have, and since I use it at my desk the lack of grinds/mess works is a plus - the grinds never leave the capsule. I find there is a good flavour, the espresso is just the right temperature, and there is a decent crema (depending on the flavour, of course). Between the sixteen flavours I would expect you'd find a few decent ones you'd like. The Bay in TO and Vancouver have little boutiques where you can try them out - I'm sure Montreal's got one too. The capsules cost 0.63 each and are lined aluminum, like the SIGG water bottles. I've never tasted any metallic flavour from the capsule and never had any grinds appear in my drink. While the coffee has never tasted like it was ground a while ago (the capsules are airtight), they also don't have the taste of coffee ground that day, either. IIRC they have a money-back deal, so you could pick one up and return it if you didn't like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
episiarch Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 Nespresso's great. It's fast and foolproof and always makes a really, really nice cup (assuming you've chosen a blend you like). Whenever one of my friends or family thinks they want to get an espresso machine, I try to talk them into the Nespresso system instead. It's really the right thing for most people who aren't sort of nutcases like myself. The product is, as far as I'm concerned, genuine espresso. It's not as good as you'd get at an elite artisan roaster/caf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvdunhill Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 has anyone double blinded this stuff? now, see I was thinking you'd take the other approach.. like, "anyone tried mincing beans with a Hattori" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oogabooga Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 ... while they decide it's just easier to stop at Starbucks on the way to work. Ironically that's why I got the darn thing in the first place - the Starbucks at my campus can't even make espresso right (by SB standards) and always has a 15-minute lineup - Nespresso takes less than a minute and makes the same goodness every time. I'm always happy when I check into a hotel that has a Nespresso machine in the room. I've had this happen to me twice in Germany in the last year, and I hope it's a trend. It was a stay at the Hooge Vuursche in Amsterdam for me - they had a Nespresso machine in the room, I tried it and bought one soon after I came back from the trip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD44hi Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Nespresso's great. It's fast and foolproof and always makes a really, really nice cup (assuming you've chosen a blend you like). Whenever one of my friends or family thinks they want to get an espresso machine, I try to talk them into the Nespresso system instead. It's really the right thing for most people who aren't sort of nutcases like myself. The product is, as far as I'm concerned, genuine espresso. It's not as good as you'd get at an elite artisan roaster/caf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD44hi Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Oh, on a semi-related tangent, have you guys tried the much touted (or pimped) AeroPress? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 I love love love hte aeropress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp11801 Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Oh, on a semi-related tangent, have you guys tried the much touted (or pimped) AeroPress? its awesome to make strong coffee ( that I add a little water to) but do not be fooled it in absolutely not an espresso maker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sschell Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 PID'd Silvia Definitely out of the OP's stated price range, but it's a pretty slick package overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD44hi Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 OT: I am getting one of those aeropresses/ it seems like mocha-maker w/o the hassle I guess... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
episiarch Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 Somewhat off topic, but still: Rebuilt/pimped espresso machine at Intelligentsia, Venice, LA: "We wanted it to look like a tube amp" Cappuccino, Intelligentsia on Vimeo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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