Espresso machine recommendation?

[GPH]

Our faithful espresso machine has stopped working about two months ago and I've been rolling on French press coffee since then, but I miss the habit of waking up with a good espresso. The cost of repair (replacing the boiler) would be 100$+ for a machine that's worth at most 300$ new (it's 10-15 years old), I don't think it's worth it.

So I was wondering, is there such a thing as a good modern espresso machine (manual of course) that can be had for 300$ or less?

[blubliss]

Maybe a used Rancilio Silvia?? These are the best consumer model. I had one before moving up to a dual boiler unit.

People sell them here all the time:

http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums

[sschell]

Both of my espresso machines came off of Craigslist. One was $50 and took about $60 in new gaskets to get working.

By manual, I assume you mean lever-action? Most lever machines are fairly similar designs, which aren't exactly modern.

[GPH]

There are a lot of good reviews for the cheapass Delonghi EC155 at 85$ new. Anyone has experience with these?

DeLonghi EC155 Review

By manual, I assume you mean lever-action? Most lever machines are fairly similar designs, which aren't exactly modern.

Yeah, I meant machines that are not all-in-one grinder/maker. We already have a separate grinder.

Also, I'm pretty much a noob in terms of coffee making. I can differentiate a good from a bad espresso and there are certain types of beans that I prefer to others, but overall I don't need something super fancy.

Edited March 11, 2010 by GPH

[episiarch]

I like Gaggia machines pretty well, and they can be found really cheaply. My first one, a used Carezza, cost about $88 IIRC. The basic models from the discontnued Carezza (replaced by the current Evolution) up to the Classic and (I think) several models beyond all have basically the same innards - a small, fast-heating boiler, an all-brass grouphead, a powerful pump, a 58mm portafilter. Good, solid stuff capable of very good results. Like you I like to start my day with an espresso or two and my Gaggia Classic does a great job with this (and I think my standards are high - I drink at places like Intelligensia, Barefoot in Silicon Valley, and Monmouth in London. I can't get to those levels at home (that's like O2 taste on an HD580 budget), but I know what I'm shooting for and I do remarkably well, considering.).

Gaggias are easy to find on Craigslist and eBay, and you can sometimes find good prices on refurbs at Whole Latte Love. The slightly higher-end Classic has a 'three-way solenoid' AKA purge valve to dump excess pressure as soon as you halt the pump. A nice feature but you can do without it.

Gaggias are great for espresso but less good if your focus is milk drinks. First, the boiler is small and there's only so much steam to be had from the thing. It's entirely sufficient for making a 16oz cappuccino or latte for my wife when she wants one, or two more modest sized milk drinks, but at that point you're completely out of steam and you'll need a couple minutes to heat up a fresh boilerful of water before you can make any more. This is no problem at all in my use case, but it's a built-in limitation of the lower-end Gaggias and you need to be aware of it.

The second problem is the included steam wand which IMO is pretty terrible. It's one of those froth-aid types that can make big clouds of circus bubbles but can't make gourmet-style microfoam at all (at least not in my hands, and I've worked at it). That's readily fixable by replacing the stock wand with a Rancilio Silvia wand, which is an easy mod on at least certain Gaggia models (easy on my Classic and I'm not normally any sort of DIY-er); if this matters to you, Google silivia wand + name of whatever Gaggia you're considering before buying.

[gtp]

How about good, old-fashioned stove-top Bialetti @ around $30. Machines always break down. I've had my stove-top espresso maker for at least 12 years and it's still going strong. The only thing that can fail is the gasket, and they are less than $10 to replace.

[GPH]

Thanks for the info episiarch, I'll read more on Gaggias machines. I drink my coffee black so milk-based drinks is no big concern.

How about good, old-fashioned stove-top Bialetti @ around $30. Machines always break down. I've had my stove-top espresso maker for at least 12 years and it's still going strong. The only thing that can fail is the gasket, and they are less than $10 to replace.

I have a stove-top espresso maker, but I find the taste inferior to both French-press and espresso machine. I'll try again, perhaps I need to use a different level of grinding.

[CD44hi]

I was going to recommend checking out coffeegeeks as well, good deals are posted there and tons of info

[Beefy]

I was going to recommend checking out coffeegeeks as well, good deals are posted there and tons of info

Is Coffeegeeks the Head-Fi or the Head-Case of the coffee world? I've read a bit of the info there, and it could go either way......

[episiarch]

Coffeegeeks is the Head-Fi, and Home Barista is the Head-Case. (Beware. You're as apt to be talked into spending a Stax-sized budget over there as over here.)

The Bialetti and similar stovetops - generically, 'moka pots' - make a tasty cup, but it's really qualitatively different from what you can produce with a pump-driven (or manually pumped) espresso machine. If you like the kind of espresso you get at the little artisan places (not necessarily what you'd get @ Starbucks et al), your taste for it won't be satisfied by anything you can get from a moka pot. Not to denigrate moka pots at all - people across Europe use them daily, and they make a super rich and tasty beverage that's quite unlike American drip coffee. But IMO if what you like is an espresso, a moka pot won't satisfy.

[GPH]

I just browsed these two websites and it seems like big slippery slope, not unlike the audio hobby, and I could totally see myself getting into it. It's a good thing that my budget is tight this year and will be for the 2-3 years to come.

Episiarch, I'm curious, what kind of coffee do you use for your everyday duties?

[episiarch]

I buy freshly-roasted beans from artisan roasters. I have no idea who does that in the Montreal area or within realistic mail-order distance from Montreal, but it's a really fun exercise in itself to make the rounds of the good roasters and see what you like. When I lived in NorCal I'd drive over to Barefoot for bags of The Boss, and mail order Black Cat from Intelligentsia, Redline (and Redline Decaf, a great dessert espresso) from Metropolis, and Ticino from Flying Goat (they've since replaced that blend). In the UK, different roasters, different coffees, but same general idea.

Those sorts of coffees run around US$12-16/lb, or somewhat over $.50/shot the way I make mine. A substantial cost issue was that beans taste off to me by about the 10th day after roast, and are really junk by two weeks, so I was throwing away lots of product. Finally I lost my inhibitions about freezing (see related Home Barista thread) at least for modest periods, and am saving a bunch of money on waste and on postage by ordering a kilo at a time and keeping all but the current 1/4 lb or so well sealed and frozen.

As for what kind of coffee, I've tried lots of different things but the pattern I seem to have settled into, for making espresso I like, with my equipment and my skills (in other words YMMV big time), is:

• always a blend, I never really like single origin espresso except as the occasional amusing experiment
  
• arabica blends, not arabica/robusta blends (but that's just because I'm caffeine-sensitive and budget my intake; flavorwise I don't mind a little robusta)
  
• never a very dark roast (espresso amplifies the burnt/caramelized flavor of dark roasts too much for me)
  
• re bean origin statistically I seem to lean noticeably toward Brazil
  

My current daily standard over here in the UK is a blend of two Brazils, a red and a yellow from the Daterra plantations, roasted in Scotland by MacBeans. If I were home in the US my regular cup would probably be Barefoot's The Boss, part Brazilian and part Indonesian. (Boss coffee signage & tech details)

I'm sure I've blathered about this in more detail than you wanted, but I never really get to talk about this stuff, so there it is.

[jp11801]

home roasting is a great way to go for coffee, I roast once a week and those that have tasted my coffee tend to think it is far superior to the coffee they buy.

It is not that I am a talented roaster at all but the beans you can buy at sweetmarias.com are vastly better than most roasted beans on the market.

Back to espresso, a quality grinder is the key to pulling a good shot and no machine can pull a good shot from an inferior grind. The baseline for a decent grinder is the rocky and they will set you back around $500 to $700. The silvia is on my short list of machines for espresso. Then there is a quality tamper and the learning curve to tamp a good shot as well. All of us are a little OCD so this should not present much of an issue.

[luvdunhill]

Reks, can you sharpen burr grinders with Japanese stones

[atothex]

Coffeegeeks is the Head-Fi, and Home Barista is the Head-Case. (Beware. You're as apt to be talked into spending a Stax-sized budget over there as over here.)

In terms of info quality or average budget? I assume both, but you never really know... a lot of folks are simply rich and not knowledgeable.

[jp11801]

to pull a good shot a grinder and espresso maker will set you back $1200 ish new. If you amortize out the cost of the two units over a two year period assuming a latte is $4 X 365 = 2920 vs $1200 + 1040 (proce of 2 years of green coffee and milk) you are ahead $600 or so and pulled better lattes on average than a pimpily faced kid at the local coffee house

[blubliss]

Home roasting is the way to go if you can swing it. I am lucky enough to have a group of guys who buy in bulk, 130 lbs. at a time. Lasts six months but is single origin. We like it. Ends up costing $2.50 - $3.50/lb. I am willing to sell some at cost if people are interested. I have Organic Ethiopian Sidamo right now, a bright fruity cup. Interested JP?

[sschell]

Home roasting is the way to go if you can swing it. I am lucky enough to have a group of guys who buy in bulk, 130 lbs. at a time. Lasts six months but is single origin. We like it. Ends up costing $2.50 - $3.50/lb. I am willing to sell some at cost if people are interested. I have Organic Ethiopian Sidamo right now, a bright fruity cup. Interested JP?

What kind of roaster are you using? I've got a little hot air popcorn popper, but if you're buying 100+ lbs. at a time, you must be using something pretty hefty.

[gtp]

The Bialetti and similar stovetops - generically, 'moka pots' - make a tasty cup, but it's really qualitatively different from what you can produce with a pump-driven (or manually pumped) espresso machine. If you like the kind of espresso you get at the little artisan places (not necessarily what you'd get @ Starbucks et al), your taste for it won't be satisfied by anything you can get from a moka pot. Not to denigrate moka pots at all - people across Europe use them daily, and they make a super rich and tasty beverage that's quite unlike American drip coffee. But IMO if what you like is an espresso, a moka pot won't satisfy.

Interesting stuff! I grew up with Bialettis and still like mine well enough...never knew anything else so I guess I've never been indoctrinated with the artisanal stuff??? Hmmm, now I have to decide: should I live in ignorance or get an education...

[episiarch]

You guys will be shocked and disbelieving, but I am getting super results with a $80 hand-cranked grinder. Zassenhaus Conical Burr Coffee Mills

It takes a little getting used to, and sure it takes an extra couple of minutes, but I take the grinder back to my desk and catch up on my morning web reading while I grind, so it's not an unpleasant or tedious experience. And you wouldn't think the results would be repeatable, but these days I go back and forth between French press and espresso in this grinder and my espresso grind is bang-on for the first shot probably 90% of the time.

Besides being inexpensive it's quiet, which was actually the deciding factor for me since I'm the early riser in the family and I try not to wake the baby (and our UK place is small). I figured I'd try it as an experiment before breaking down and getting a proper electric grinder (had an Ascaso iMini before, would probably go for a Baratza Vario now). But the experiment worked so well that I didn't go back to electric like I expected.

A nice feature of these manual grinders is that you can grind by weight and essentially nothing gets lost in the works. So I can measure out an 18.5 gram dose at the start of the grind and know that's very close to what I'll have in grounds at the end. Very helpful for the kind of teetering-on-the-edge-of-overextraction shots that I like to make.

[episiarch]

Interesting stuff! I grew up with Bialettis and still like mine well enough...never knew anything else so I guess I've never been indoctrinated with the artisanal stuff??? Hmmm, now I have to decide: should I live in ignorance or get an education...

You may want to think of it as getting hooked on a new drug. You'll want to be sure there's a high-quality dealer within reasonable driving distance, at least until you learn to make your own.

[episiarch]

or . . . you could just give yourself over to it.

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[jp11801]

Those hand cranks are great but if you are pulling several shots of espresso a hand crank can get old fast. I used to travel with a Zass grinder and I enjoyed it for that purpose.

[blubliss]

What kind of roaster are you using? I've got a little hot air popcorn popper, but if you're buying 100+ lbs. at a time, you must be using something pretty hefty.

We have 2, a HotTop and a Behmor 1600, and go through about 5 lbs. a week, 3 roasts.

[Bob_McBob]

Back to espresso, a quality grinder is the key to pulling a good shot and no machine can pull a good shot from an inferior grind. The baseline for a decent grinder is the rocky and they will set you back around $500 to $700. The silvia is on my short list of machines for espresso. Then there is a quality tamper and the learning curve to tamp a good shot as well. All of us are a little OCD so this should not present much of an issue.

The quality grinder advice is absolutely correct. There's no point buying any espresso machine if you're not willing to spend some decent money on a nice grinder with fine stepless adjustment. In general, you should be spending at least as much, if not more on the grinder, because it's much more important for good espresso than the espresso machine itself.

However, I don't think the Rocky has been the baseline grinder for at least several years. First it was the Mazzer Mini, then Macap M4, and now the Baratza Vario is the new game in town. I see absolutely no reason to buy a Rocky when the Vario -- a much better grinder for espresso -- is around the same price. It's also good enough to pair with the $1500 espresso machine you upgrade to in six months

If you're looking at the really low end of espresso machines, the only advice I can give is that it's pretty much all "15 bar hurr" thermoblock crap. These do not make anything you could call espresso, and they also universally suck at steaming milk properly. The cheapest "real" espresso machine is probably something like the Le'Lit PL-041.