The Headcase Stax thread

[wink]

Awww, c'mon fellas.

It may be that MSB's main purpose for existence is to serve as a bad example.........    

[spritzer]

I that might be just be correct.   

As for those "reviewers",  they are pretty much why the market is so fucked up.  Why people like Single Power, RSA, Cavalli, ALO, DNA, Woo, Wells, etc. etc. continue to operate.  "How I feel" with no real basis for comparison rules the roost.  Ohh and "I own expensive shit" actually means something to these people when it is meaningless as anything.  Anybody can buy expensive shit, doesn't mean you know anything about it. 

[Hopstretch]

It's known as ATGNI in the golf world. Bloke rocks up with a £5,000 set of clubs and looking like he covered himself in glue before running through the Titleist section of the pro shop. Shoots 105.

"All the gear, no idea."

[Craig Sawyers]

{pet rant mode} = on

It was summed up by my boss years ago; in earlier days he was a racing driver, and he used to describe such people as "all dust and wheelspin, but no forward traction". The world is full of them - bullshit merchants with the appearance of glossy form, but no substance at all. Grinds my gears.

{pet rant mode} = off

[Dave R]

With me once owning an SACD/DAC that for my income was very expensive, and now owning a DAC that I feel was/is a bargain, I've learnt spending more doesn't guarantee better SQ than something that costs a lot less. 

With that said,  some that go on HF and listen to expensive gear, will say it sounds amazing to try and promote sales even if it sounds nothing special, although us on HC will already know that. 

[Spork]

2 hours ago, Sechtdamon said:

What makes you think Head-Case can be considered one of the forums you've been part of? (I've made a similar mistake before, I strongly suggest not to do.)

 

Let me make things tad bit easy for you, here is the welcome message:

 

 

 

 

Thank you. That helps. I think...

[Dusty Chalk]

3 hours ago, Spork said:

Relative to standards of behaviour on most of the forums I've been a part of.

The what now ?

Don't really care for a newb trying to suggest 'manners' like you know us when you haven't even seen us at our worst . Just settle in and read for a while , I'm pretty sure all forums would appreciate that . 

Is head-fi down again ? 

[mwl168]

5 hours ago, spritzer said:

...

As for those "reviewers",  they are pretty much why the market is so fucked up.  Why people like Single Power, RSA, Cavalli, ALO, DNA, Woo, Wells, etc. etc. continue to operate.  "How I feel" with no real basis for comparison rules the roost.  Ohh and "I own expensive shit" actually means something to these people when it is meaningless as anything.  Anybody can buy expensive shit, doesn't mean you know anything about it. 

I agree.

As an example, years ago I read a review from a prominent reviewer on a prominent audiophile magazine. This guy went on to rave about a front-end gear asserting its outstanding bass extension and quality and this all through using a pair of mini-monitor speakers that barely reach beyond 40Hz if that. So much for a rave review...

Edited November 25, 2016 by mwl168

[spritzer]

Yeah, reminds me of the WES vs. BHSE review somebody did.  Two reviewers who didn't actually compare the amps head to head and of the two the BHSE was too warm and the WES neutral.  Anybody who has listened to these two amps knows this is utter bullshit.  This is far from an isolated incident...

[Voltron]

Don't really care for a newb

FTFY

[Spork]

9 hours ago, Dusty Chalk said:

The what now ?

Don't really care for a newb trying to suggest 'manners' like you know us when you haven't even seen us at our worst . Just settle in and read for a while , I'm pretty sure all forums would appreciate that . 

Is head-fi down again ? 

 

A little over 3 months from joining to first post. Sorry I rushed in.

 

[astrostar59]

On 25 Nov 2016 at 4:44 PM, spritzer said:

Yeah, reminds me of the WES vs. BHSE review somebody did.  Two reviewers who didn't actually compare the amps head to head and of the two the BHSE was too warm and the WES neutral.  Anybody who has listened to these two amps knows this is utter bullshit.  This is far from an isolated incident...

Was that Tyll? If it was I agree. Sorry, it wasn't Tyll apologies. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by astrostar59

[Hopstretch]

20 minutes ago, astrostar59 said:

Was that Tyll?

That is the dumbest thing you have ever posted here, not that there hasn't been some legitimate competition.

[Sechtdamon]

 

1 hour ago, Spork said:

A little over 3 months from joining to first post. Sorry I rushed in.

The problem isn't how much time has passed since you joined, the problem is how effectively you used that time.

 

 

On 24.11.2016 at 0:43 AM, astrostar59 said:

I heard about the KGSShv on here. I then heard it in real life then bought 2. Then I heard about the carbon version one here too. Then bought one. So I do value the knowledge from you guys.

1 hour ago, astrostar59 said:

Was that Tyll?

As I know Mr. Tyll is respected member of HC. Just FYI. And at least read the review before comment on it.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Sechtdamon

[Bjorn]

1 hour ago, astrostar59 said:

Was that Tyll? If it was I agree. He is now saying the 009 or any electrostatic has flaky treble and has shifted his opinion from the 009 being IHO best HP in the world to barely mentioned. No idea why. His review on the Utopia rated it as another 'best in the world' yet his hall of fame page puts it a good all rounder. He also used 5dB of bass boost on that phone to make it sound right.

That's some funny ass shit coming from the guy who uses a tube dac to make his 009 sound right. 

[swt61]

This thread has become un-readable with all the dumbass comments. Dusty, Dan...can we get a cleanup on isle 4?

[DJS]

On 11/24/2016 at 5:36 AM, kevin gilmore said:

anyone that has ever listened to the koss esp950 will agree its clinical and cold. it tests pretty well, thanks to gobs of feedback.

but lets look at the msb specs a bit

 

Dynamic Range	>140 dB
Frequency Response	0Hz-20Khz, ±0.8dB
XLR Input	75 Ohm Balanced 4Vrms Maximum
Common Mode Rejection Ratio	> 120dB CMRR @ 60Hz > 90dB CMRR @ 1kHz > 70dB CMRR @ 20kHz
Crosstalk	> 90dB Crosstalk @ 1kH > 65dB Crosstalk @ 20kHz

 

now its obviously transformer input based, so 0 hz implying dc coupled. flat out lie. and its already down by almost 1db at 20khz meaning that its slew rate limited and likely this is into no load, once you add 120pf, its going to be worse. 75 ohm input definitely implies that transformer. that dynamic range number is at least 30db off. and where is the distortion specs.

Likely the distortion specs are much worse because I don't see any opamps with piles of feedback.

stupid massively overpriced crap.

I am a designer with MSB and I will not get into an argument with anyone about value or sound quality which are highly subjective  parameters, but I do want to clear up some technical misconceptions about this electrostat amp. Fist Kevin is correct about one spec being wrong, our website is new and there are likely some more incorrect specs as well. The frequency spec should read 5Hz-20Khz +-0.8dB driving one Stax SR-009 at 100Vrms. This is mostly due to the amps 6500 Ohm output impedance driving the low Q capacitor of the headphones. Also from a normal designers perspective the 75 Ohm input impedance seems like a bad choice, but this amp was designed to only be used with the Select DAC so this amp forms an optimized circuit with the amp. As the designer I prefer to think of it as a super high output voltage DAC that happens to be housed in two boxes. The other specs are correct but slightly conservative. The dynamic range is actually closer to 144db (20Khz bandwidth) because the amp only has a 3dB NF but any particular amp could have a slightly slightly variable PSRR or slightly less effective input transformer shielding which could lower the dynamic range a couple of db due to a slight excess of 120Hz or 180Hz noise coupling from surroundings. When noise floor reaches the nanovolt level (the input stage) even the orientation of a wire can couple excess noise into a circuit so I like to publish conservative specs that don't reguire a farady room to reach. Distortion at 20Hz 300Vrms is limited by the input transformer to 0.05% but by 100Hz that is down to 0.001%. At 1Khz 50Vrms THD+N reaches its minimum measured value of 0.0004% (probably the limit of my AP test system) then slowly increases to 0.02% at maximum output of 440Vrms (mostly 3rd harmonic). This is intentionally limited by the maximum DAC output so that the amp circuitry cannot clip. Distortion to 20Khz remains esentially unchanged from that measured at 1Khz. Most of the semiconductors are mounted under the PCB with heat pipes carrying heat to the heatsinks. Heatsinks on this product are full depth without the hand pockets of the Select DAC to facilitate the additional power dissipation.  Static power dissipation is about 60W which is close to the maximum comfortable heat dissipation for the Select chassis. To get the 120db of power supply noise rejection required there is a three stage regulator and noise filter. The numerous capacitors are elements of the three stages of regulation. The amp is a zero feedback design because even tho feedback reduced the THD at full output considerably, lowered the effective output impedance, and flattened the frequency response at 20Khz it also reduced perceived sound quality significantly so I decided to omit it. I feel the measured specs are plenty good without it and as a benefit the amp is unconditionally stable with any load.

As a side note the more than 140db of dynamic range was a happy surprise. I was shooting for 135db or better. Also prototyping a HV amp or power supply like this is terrifying, especially with modern miniaturized components, a mistake or slip means more than an Amp at 600Vdc stopping your heart. PCB and case design is no joke either if you want a safe error tolerant design, every three dimensional leakage path from each component to nearby components has to be considered. 

[Voltron]

[wink]

7 hours ago, DJS said:

I am a designer with MSB and I will not get into an argument with anyone about value or sound quality which are highly subjective  parameters, but I do want to clear up some technical misconceptions about this electrostat amp. Fist Kevin is correct about one spec being wrong, our website is new and there are likely some more incorrect specs as well. The frequency spec should read 5Hz-20Khz +-0.8dB driving one Stax SR-009 at 100Vrms. This is mostly due to the amps 6500 Ohm output impedance driving the low Q capacitor of the headphones. Also from a normal designers perspective the 75 Ohm input impedance seems like a bad choice, but this amp was designed to only be used with the Select DAC so this amp forms an optimized circuit with the amp. As the designer I prefer to think of it as a super high output voltage DAC that happens to be housed in two boxes. The other specs are correct but slightly conservative. The dynamic range is actually closer to 144db (20Khz bandwidth) because the amp only has a 3dB NF but any particular amp could have a slightly slightly variable PSRR or slightly less effective input transformer shielding which could lower the dynamic range a couple of db due to a slight excess of 120Hz or 180Hz noise coupling from surroundings. When noise floor reaches the nanovolt level (the input stage) even the orientation of a wire can couple excess noise into a circuit so I like to publish conservative specs that don't reguire a farady room to reach. Distortion at 20Hz 300Vrms is limited by the input transformer to 0.05% but by 100Hz that is down to 0.001%. At 1Khz 50Vrms THD+N reaches its minimum measured value of 0.0004% (probably the limit of my AP test system) then slowly increases to 0.02% at maximum output of 440Vrms (mostly 3rd harmonic). This is intentionally limited by the maximum DAC output so that the amp circuitry cannot clip. Distortion to 20Khz remains esentially unchanged from that measured at 1Khz. Most of the semiconductors are mounted under the PCB with heat pipes carrying heat to the heatsinks. Heatsinks on this product are full depth without the hand pockets of the Select DAC to facilitate the additional power dissipation.  Static power dissipation is about 60W which is close to the maximum comfortable heat dissipation for the Select chassis. To get the 120db of power supply noise rejection required there is a three stage regulator and noise filter. The numerous capacitors are elements of the three stages of regulation. The amp is a zero feedback design because even tho feedback reduced the THD at full output considerably, lowered the effective output impedance, and flattened the frequency response at 20Khz it also reduced perceived sound quality significantly so I decided to omit it. I feel the measured specs are plenty good without it and as a benefit the amp is unconditionally stable with any load.

As a side note the more than 140db of dynamic range was a happy surprise. I was shooting for 135db or better. Also prototyping a HV amp or power supply like this is terrifying, especially with modern miniaturized components, a mistake or slip means more than an Amp at 600Vdc stopping your heart. PCB and case design is no joke either if you want a safe error tolerant design, every three dimensional leakage path from each component to nearby components has to be considered. 

All this to say EPIC FAIL........  

[astrostar59]

8 hours ago, DJS said:

I am a designer with MSB and I will not get into an argument with anyone about value or sound quality which are highly subjective  parameters, but I do want to clear up some technical misconceptions about this electrostat amp. Fist Kevin is correct about one spec being wrong, our website is new and there are likely some more incorrect specs as well. The frequency spec should read 5Hz-20Khz +-0.8dB driving one Stax SR-009 at 100Vrms. This is mostly due to the amps 6500 Ohm output impedance driving the low Q capacitor of the headphones. Also from a normal designers perspective the 75 Ohm input impedance seems like a bad choice, but this amp was designed to only be used with the Select DAC so this amp forms an optimized circuit with the amp. As the designer I prefer to think of it as a super high output voltage DAC that happens to be housed in two boxes. The other specs are correct but slightly conservative. The dynamic range is actually closer to 144db (20Khz bandwidth) because the amp only has a 3dB NF but any particular amp could have a slightly slightly variable PSRR or slightly less effective input transformer shielding which could lower the dynamic range a couple of db due to a slight excess of 120Hz or 180Hz noise coupling from surroundings. When noise floor reaches the nanovolt level (the input stage) even the orientation of a wire can couple excess noise into a circuit so I like to publish conservative specs that don't reguire a farady room to reach. Distortion at 20Hz 300Vrms is limited by the input transformer to 0.05% but by 100Hz that is down to 0.001%. At 1Khz 50Vrms THD+N reaches its minimum measured value of 0.0004% (probably the limit of my AP test system) then slowly increases to 0.02% at maximum output of 440Vrms (mostly 3rd harmonic). This is intentionally limited by the maximum DAC output so that the amp circuitry cannot clip. Distortion to 20Khz remains esentially unchanged from that measured at 1Khz. Most of the semiconductors are mounted under the PCB with heat pipes carrying heat to the heatsinks. Heatsinks on this product are full depth without the hand pockets of the Select DAC to facilitate the additional power dissipation.  Static power dissipation is about 60W which is close to the maximum comfortable heat dissipation for the Select chassis. To get the 120db of power supply noise rejection required there is a three stage regulator and noise filter. The numerous capacitors are elements of the three stages of regulation. The amp is a zero feedback design because even tho feedback reduced the THD at full output considerably, lowered the effective output impedance, and flattened the frequency response at 20Khz it also reduced perceived sound quality significantly so I decided to omit it. I feel the measured specs are plenty good without it and as a benefit the amp is unconditionally stable with any load.

As a side note the more than 140db of dynamic range was a happy surprise. I was shooting for 135db or better. Also prototyping a HV amp or power supply like this is terrifying, especially with modern miniaturized components, a mistake or slip means more than an Amp at 600Vdc stopping your heart. PCB and case design is no joke either if you want a safe error tolerant design, every three dimensional leakage path from each component to nearby components has to be considered. 

Respect for posting. It sounds plausible to me, but I don't know the technicals so over to others for that. Anyway, least MSB are supplying more details.

[wink]

2 hours ago, astrostar59 said:

Respect for posting. It sounds plausible to me, but I don't know the technicals so over to others for that. Anyway, least MSB are supplying more details.

Yeah, but.... Don't all the shills, fanboys and trolls do the same thing, but in a different way....?

"My stats are better than your stats because I'm better at creative accounting and reporting.....!" 

[spritzer]

What info, that is just a bunch of meaningless crap.  I do love how the first paragraph goes completely against the choice to omit feedback, which clearly made this clusterfuck of an amp better.  You do realize that low output impedance for electrostatics is desirable? 

[kevin gilmore]

12 hours ago, DJS said:

 Also prototyping a HV amp or power supply like this is terrifying, especially with modern miniaturized components, a mistake or slip means more than an Amp at 600Vdc stopping your heart. 

WIMP!

If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

that said, if you are not wearing the appropriate PPE, including rubber shoes, non flammable clothing, and safety glasses, and have the appropriate training you are a FOOL.

and if working on singlepower gear, add a blast shield.

I saw first hand while working at Zenith Radio what happens when someone does not follow the rules, I was less than 15 feet away. And that person got a trip to the hospital and was lucky. Back when CRT's were the in thing and 25KV was the way things were done. Glad that is over now.

The rest of it is marketing BS.  Deliberately requiring an amplifier to use a $30k dac because if it clips it may blow up seems a bit stupid. Calling the pair a high voltage DAC when there is a transformer in the middle is a lie.  You actually can make a real high voltage R2R dac, with 1500V opto isolators, its pretty easy actually, much easier than doing a low voltage version.

etc.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

At least they put in heat pipes. 

[DJS]

45 minutes ago, kevin gilmore said:

WIMP!

If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

that said, if you are not wearing the appropriate PPE, including rubber shoes, non flammable clothing, and safety glasses, and have the appropriate training you are a FOOL.

and if working on singlepower gear, add a blast shield.

I saw first hand while working at Zenith Radio what happens when someone does not follow the rules, I was less than 15 feet away. And that person got a trip to the hospital and was lucky. Back when CRT's were the in thing and 25KV was the way things were done. Glad that is over now.

The rest of it is marketing BS.  Deliberately requiring an amplifier to use a $30k dac because if it clips it may blow up seems a bit stupid. Calling the pair a high voltage DAC when there is a transformer in the middle is a lie.  You actually can make a real high voltage R2R dac, with 1500V opto isolators, its pretty easy actually, much easier than doing a low voltage version.

etc.

 

 

I never said the amp would blow up, yes if you coupled 100Vrms into the input you may damage the protection devices or overheat the input transformer but I doubt any sane person would connect it up to a power amp or power line on purpose... clipping produces objectional distortion so I choose to have that be impossible in system.

Look, I have no intention of any markting BS. MSB makes less than 1% of our revenue on products other than DACs and OEM contracts. I only step up to the plate to design something like an amp when all the avalable products are difficient in one way or another and we have need of it.  I have zero interest in lying about technicalities. Yes a calibrated metrology KVD is the worlds highest performance 1000v amplifierless DAC but that fact alone does not make it suitable for music reproduction. Tossing hypotheticals about does not change reality.

 I must say that you seem very defensive, did a grandkid poke you in the eye at Thanksgiving dinner? Flames usually accompany smoke, do you have something to hide? Nothing I posted was inaccurate so I don't believe I deserve being called a FOOL.

BTW when is any electronic component off the table when a designer sets down to design a product? Every DAC we sell has multiple transformers throughout its circuitry. RF transformers isolate external data busses and impedance match clock transmission lines, micro transformers do level translation or isolation for voltage islands, power transformers are used to generate power supplies, MF transformers are used for DC to DC converters, ect... The only drawbacks to designing with any transformers in my view is cost and size, they tend to cost more than any other circuit component and consume more space so I usually attempt to design them out of products that have a low cost BOM constraint or size constraint. My view is that a designer should test and choose the best architecture and componets that fit the relevant design constraints, not reject possibilities out of hand because of some irrational belief or fear. Just because a box has a transformer in it disqualifies it from being called a DAC in your view? I'm curious for you to explain your position on this...

Obviously I can stand the heat or I wouldn't have a product... Being terrified of being caught in a line and being dragged into a storm has never stopped good sailors either... fear is what keeps people cautious and alive.