The Headcase Stax thread

[spritzer]

Now that Elephas has had some personal time with his leather pads the war can go on...

If you mean an SR-30 electret, not really, unless you can get it for cheap. I think SRM is the designation for solid state Stax amplifiers.

For less then 100$ then the electrets aren't bad but don't spend much more then that. All Stax amps have the SRM prefix but the SRA is for the intergrated amps which had some kind of a preamp function.

[padam]

I couldn't win the Stax CD auction, maybe next time

[catscratch]

I don't think the SR-007 is "darker sounding than every other headphone besides the HD650." The SR-007 has a very HD600-like tonality, at least with the SRM-717. Not dark, not bright, but just about perfect. Though to be fair, it's still very dependent on the source. With the 840c it was rather bright, actually, and with the Opus 21 it was the other way around. Cables were able to adjust tonality either way in both cases.

I think the problem is that you're using the same exact rig to drive many different headphones which have all been voiced in a different way. The O2 requires the rig to be tuned around it since it's so damn revealing (which usually means making the whole rig as neutral as possible), and if you have a rig that's tuned for something else, like the HE90, the O2 probably won't work in it all that well.

But, not having heard the rig in question, I could be wrong.

[HiWire]

If you mean an SR-30 electret, not really, unless you can get it for cheap. I think SRM is the designation for solid state Stax amplifiers.

Thanks, I think I'll let them sit there.

[Elephas]

I think the problem is that you're using the same exact rig to drive many different headphones which have all been voiced in a different way.

I do use a main rig, but I currently have several amps and sources.

I agree that each headphone can be matched with a rig. I admit that I haven't really done so. I use the ES-1 and Esoteric source as my main rig with every electrostat. Tube-rolling can change the sound, but the rest of the rig stays the same. My current secondary rig is an Aristaeus + DP-500.

If you list every headphone that's brighter than the O2, and then list every one that's darker, I think you'll find the first list to be a lot longer. Besides the HD600 and HD650, the JVC Victor DX1000 is also a bit dark-sounding to me. But there are very few others. Actually, the HD600 is probably only slightly dark, it seems brighter than the HD650 to me.

Every other Stax seems to be brighter than the O2. I haven't heard every one, so this is just conjecture. The SR-Omega, 4070 and SR-404 are all brighter. Also the HE90, HE60 and Jade.

Every Grado (that I've heard...). Every AT including the L3000 and W11JPN, which are not very bright and darker than the W5000 and AD2000. Every AKG such as K271, K501, K601, K701, K1000. Every Beyer. The R10, Qualia and SA5000.

If this doesn't mean the O2's are dark, I don't know what does.

I'm not trying to be belligerent. The O2Mk1 and O2Mk2 do sound a bit brighter, more open, less congested and more dynamic driven by the ES-1, and certain tube combinations can push them towards more brightness. But they're still darker than most of the other headphones.

Can we agree, then, that the O2's are darker than most other headphones? It's the start of 2009, time for a new beginning!

[spritzer]

Some phones do need a rig tailored to their needs as it were. The HE90 doesn't play well with a DC-coupled amp and needs something to color the sound, be it a bad choice of tubes or some caps. The Lambdas don't need all that much power driving them as the housing can be overloaded making the usual colorations even worse. The Sigma's are the complete opposite as they need something clean and powerful to overcome the limitations of the design and make them really sing.

I for one do think that most popular transducers are to bright. Could be that they are made by old farts, for old farts but they simply don't sound natural to my ears. Some voice their gear to impress and a relaxed treble presentation isn't something that will impress 99% of listeners.

As for the SR-007, drive them off the 007t, or some other low power amp, and have no clue how to wear them and you will end up with a dark, bass heavy mess. Feed them well in a neutral system, with the correct fit, and I don't think they are dark at all. Do they lack the excessive treble energy of the SR-Omega and He90? Yes, but those phones are simply excessively bright and have the etch to prove it.

[mypasswordis]

I just came across a set of Koss ESP10 on Ebay. Although I don't expect it to arrive for another week, I'm already figuring out how to get the best out of it through mods. So does anyone here have any old, used SR-007 MkI or A/Mk2 pads they would want to sell me? I would rather not have to pay 2.5 times what I paid for the headphones for new pads.

[The Monkey]

Next week I hope to really spend some hours seriously comparing the mk1 and mk2. So far, I love the mk1. Seriously love it.

[Elephas]

Feed them well in a neutral system, with the correct fit, and I don't think they are dark at all. Do they lack the excessive treble energy of the SR-Omega and He90? Yes, but those phones are simply excessively bright and have the etch to prove it.

I understand this viewpoint. One person's excessively bright could be another's just right, and one's slightly dark could also be another's just right.

My point is that no matter the reference point for neutral, the O2Mk1 and O2Mk2 are darker-sounding than most other headphones. So is the HD650. This is not necessarily a bad thing, since many people, including me, apparently like the O2's and the HD650.

If someone thinks the O2's are just right and the HE90, SR-Omega and most other headphones are too bright, I can accept that. It could very well be that the O2's are perfectly neutral and all the other headphones are made by and designed for old farts with less than good hearing. I don't care, I just care about what I'm hearing, and that is the O2's are darker than most other headphones.

But that's too many "bright" headphones. It's hard for me to believe that with the variety and competition in the market, the difficulties of creating and selling high-end expensive headphones and the history, that so many are made intentionally to be excessively bright. It seems more likely to me that the O2's and HD650 are just darker than neutral.

I don't think it is just the high frequencies that are slightly rolled off. It's also the midrange that seems slightly tilted towards a darker sound. It is a very pleasant-sounding midrange, very smooth and liquid. I think there's a tradeoff to the smoothness, though, and that was the tilt to a darker sound.

BTW, I think the Jade is the real thing. They are tonally more similar to the HE90, HE60, SR-Omega, R10, Qualia, 4070, SR-SC1, K701, K1000, GS1000, PS-1, HP-2, W5000, SA5000 etc. than the O2's or the HD650. The first group has a more natural-sounding and less dark tonality to me.

[spritzer]

There is no doubt in my mind that Stax tried to tame the top end of the phones deliberately. That's why the open area of the stators is so small i.e. air damping which provides the diaphragm with a cushion of air to prevent it from oscillating. This also changes the electrical parameters of the drivers so you need more power to open up the treble. You really need the BHSE and some good silver cables.

[faust3d]

BTW, I think the Jade is the real thing. They are tonally more similar to the HE90, HE60, SR-Omega, R10, Qualia, 4070, SR-SC1, K701, K1000, GS1000, PS-1, HP-2, W5000, SA5000 etc. than the O2's or the HD650. The first group has a more natural-sounding and less dark tonality to me.

In no way is Jade similar in tonality to K1000, R10, W5000 and SA5000 . It is a bit similar to HE60. I did not hear other headphones on your list but I heard above enough to form an opinion. I also think O2 is very neutral, if a bit warm sounding, and I use T1S amp with them. O2 is also is nothing like HD650 and HD600, tonally or otherwise. Oh and get over it you have old fast ears.

[mypasswordis]

I don't think he really meant tonality, just which way the frequency spectrum the headphones are tilted. If he did mean tonality, that would be a problem.

[Deadneddz]

Elephas, i agree that everyone might have a certain viewpoint, but it seems that the "darker" tonality of the O2s seems to bother you for some reason. When you say "darker" in tonality, do you feel that the O2s do not have that "Wow", "High-Fi-ish" sound that is in so many audio products today? Does the "darker" tonality of the O2s make your music seem muffled, less detailed, or less involving to you compared to other phones, such as the HE-90 and the Jade you've been listening to recently?

I dont understand how the O2s seem dark, as they imo, do not have any lack of detail compared to the other phones you metioned. Imo, darkness seems to be caused by the lack of detail in a headphone, which often results in a smoother(as opposed to etch), more "laid back"(less in your face) sound. Isn't this the reason why people often associate "analytical", "treble" oriented gear with one that has more detail? As opposed to gear that is "warmer", "darker" as gear that has less emphasis on treble energy?

The O2s in my opinion, may be "darker" compared to other phones you listed, but seems to have just as much detail. This incredible feat allows the listener to enjoy incredible detail without the usual bad side effects such as etch, excessive sibilance, and an unfocused "head-stage", just to name a few.

Warmth or darkness to me, is the key to providing a foundation for a perfect setting or "soundstage" for which music can flow and create images. When you have warmth, smoothness, "a more relaxed tone", then the soundstage becomes more focused. Why? Because there is now more space within the soundstage for music to flow. No matter what many say, obviously the sound that you hear will always "literally" be coming from the drivers that are positioned very close to you ear, as far as headphones are concerned. But what many people dont realize is that within the small space of the drivers and your ear, the headphones need to create a certain space, and infuse that space with details that creates the overall sonic image.

Im just using the HE-90 as an example, but people may say "well the O2s soundstage is not nearly as expansive as the HE-90." Thats true, but only to an extent.

The HE-90s have too much treble energy or some would say "bright" imo, and while this may cause the sound to project literally and actually farther compared to the O2s, it causes the soundstage or "overall sonic picture" to become less focused, because the space which music can flow is now less. Hence the terms "Upfront"(which we associate with detail, aggressive, ect.) vs "laid back(which we associate with less detail, smooth, ect.)"

Note the two words i bolded. Upfront(closer, less space) Laid back(farther, more space)

Dont most of us agree that headphones are just an illusion? These transducers that we put on our heads convey the performances and recordings that are not actually there in front of us when we listen to them. Creating the sonic image is a definately something that has many element. But in the small space between our ears and the drivers, we need to create a picture that has focus, depth, width, details, ect., ect., within that space.

This is why actually projecting the sound farther(excessive treble energy) is absolutely useless as this causes the sound to literally be more expansive but less focused because there is now less space to infuse with all of the frequencies of the music.

Width within the soundstage, not actual width

Depth within the soundstage, not actual depth.

Ect., Ect.

Now dont get me wrong, average transducers can be bright and lack soundstage, or be dark and lack details.

But the He-90 may be brighter(not lacking detail, but is still controlled enough to create an only slightly diffused soundstage)

While the O2s may be darker(but still able to provide exceptional detail within an smaller but extremely focused non-diffused soundstage.)

Now Elephas, with these exceptional phones(He-90s, O2s, Jades, R10s, ect.), i see that one can perhaps choose based on preference, because these extremely high end phones are able to go against normal sound trends and provide the best of all worlds, without sacraficing any important part of the sonic image

Ex. (Dark and smooth, but with detail) or (Bright, but smooth and controlled)

But i just did not quite understand what your thoughts exactly were when you describe the O2s as being "dark" I would love to hear your explanation as to why you describe them that way.

Whatever the reason, i hope you enjoy whichever phone you like the best. Thats what really matters in everything anyways.

Vincent

[Elephas]

You really need the BHSE and some good silver cables.

OK, so the O2's need a Blue Hawaii to really sound good and neutral. I can accept that, given the difference between the ES-1 and the SRM-T1W. Driven by the ES-1, they are more dynamic, less congested, and yes, brighter.

But then my next question would be, doesn't Stax sell the O2 matched with their own amps? I've heard the O2Mk1 with a 007tII and a 727, but not a 717. I've tried the O2Mk2 with a 006tA once, and it wasn't a good match.

I expect most O2 owners are using it with Stax amps. And there's nothing wrong with that, in fact that is the standard. But we also agree that the O2 is not really well-driven by those amps, right? Compared to a KGSS, ES-1, Blue Hawaii, or other 3rd party amps? Then why did Stax design the O2 to sound the way it does when matched with their amps, if that is the standard? Couldn't they, or shouldn't they, have made it brighter, closer to neutral, and less dark? The Stax engineers probably have a T2 available, and maybe built themselves a BH or the other 3rd party designs. So I would expect them to know how the O2 sounds when it is "very well-driven."

If we don't agree that the O2's driven by the Stax amps are dark, then we would have to say that the O2's driven by the KGSS, ES-1, BH etc. are brighter and therefore not neutral.

There can only be one neutral reference point.

In no way is Jade similar in tonality to K1000, R10, W5000 and SA5000.

I didn't mean that all those headphones have the same tonality, which I don't think they do. I was saying the Jade is "more similar to" them than to the O2 or HD650.

Regarding the O2 and HD650, they are definitely different-sounding and I would never confuse one for the other. But if I had to choose one dynamic headphone that was "closest" to the O2 it would probably be the HD650. Maybe the JVC DX1000 too, but I've only heard one for less than 10 minutes.

[spritzer]

Your doing this the wrong way... The 007 is more neutral on better amps because then the amp isn't limiting the performance of the phones. The amp can be neutral sounding but lack power (and the other way around) but the end result of how an ES transducer behaves will always depend on the amp not being a factor and being able to feed drivers all the power they need with enough left over for peak transients. If the amp can't supply enough current to keep the voltage in the treble region from sagging then that is hardly the headphones fault. Stax could have done what they did with the Mk2/A and changed the character of the phones to suit their lackluster amps but that's a terrible idea in my book. When the MDR-R10 was designed there were no dedicated headphone amps to speak of so should Sony have tailored it to play well on a walkman? No, they made the best phones they could and even made a speaker amp adapter so the phones could be driven by a good amp.

The 717 does do a respectable job with the 007 but the 007t or any of the other tube amps are a bad match to say the least. I've been living with the 717 now for 7 months and while I can't wait for the BHSE the small Stax amp does a respectable job. It's not what I'd call fully neutral but for less then 700$ it's a steal. The Stax amps under performing doesn't reflect badly on the headphones in any way as making a great headphone is a lot cheaper then making the amp to match them. The SR-007 is a very thought out design and built so that they could get maximum performance without any crazy ideas such as mesh stators or other such lunacy. Amps are tougher as you need heavy items such as transformers and heatsinks coupled with transistors that run for a few $ a pop. That's why Stax will always be very financially constrained when making amps as they are only getting max 30% of the retail price for each unit sold (basic retail rule of thumb). The amp actually costs 1/3 to 1/5 of that 30% to make and the rest covers all manners of overhead (manufacturing rules of thumb). With these margins you are very limited in every way and a small increase in the cost of manufacture grows exponentially. If Stax were to make something like the BHSE then it could never be made under 15k$ and would probably be closer to 20k$.

While the Stax amps aren't dark sounding it is their limited power output that makes the 007 sound like poo. If it were simply a matter of how the amp would sound then we would all buy an Egmont and be blissfully ignorant, rolling caps and tubes like crazy to achieve some sound we were after. That sadly isn't the case and the needs of the 007 still haven't been fully met though I can assure you it is being worked on...

[Elephas]

It still doesn't make sense to me.

Your point about the R10 is that Sony did the best they could at the time, no matter the amps available then. I agree, but I also think that their best back then was different from now. None of those Sony R10 engineers heard a balanced R10 driven by an SDS-XLR, TTVJ 307 or B52. They only had the amps they had at the time. Sources also. So their effort for the R10 back then is different from what some of us are experiencing the R10 with now. They had no way of knowing for sure that the R10 could sound much better with future amps.

Similar situation with the O2. Some people claim that it is much better driven by 3rd party amps than the Stax amps. I certainly think so, and have experienced the difference myself with a KGSS, Aristaeus and ES-1.

When the O2 was designed, Stax had the T2 and maybe a few other amps on hand. Maybe they built many amps internally during the design process. But they sold it with the matching SS and tube amps. Very few 3rd party amps were available back then, so no one knew how the O2 could sound better with a KGSS, etc. The O2 had the potential back then, but it was only potential, nothing was for sure.

I assume the R10 and O2 designers tried their best, or close to it given the usual constraints. But I also don't think they "knew" how the R10 and O2 would sound with future amps, the current best amps. They probably had an idea, and had their in-house amps, but couldn't know for sure. The R10 and O2 owners back then definitely didn't know.

I think the O2 sounds dark compared to many other headphones. I think it is improved, brighter, closer to neutral, and more dynamic, when driven by the 3rd party amps I've tried (KGSS, Aristaeus, ES-1) compared to the Stax amps I've tried (007tII, 727, 006tA). So if Stax intended, years ago with the O2Mk1, and intends today with the O2Mk2, to match their headphones with their amps, why are the O2's dark-sounding when matched with the 007tII and 727?

This doesn't make sense to me, that Stax intentionally made the O2Mk1 sound the way it does back then, placing their hopes on future amps coming into existence which will fix those shortcomings. And those future amps weren't even going to be Stax amps, they're the current 3rd party amps.

I'm not trying to be anti-O2. I'm using and enjoying them with 3rd party amps, not Stax amps. I just don't understand why Stax designed them the way they did, and I "have to" use a 3rd party amp because the O2's matched with a Stax amp are too dark-sounding.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Elephas

[Elephas]

Hey, where did everyone go? Come back, please?

The O2Mk1 and O2Mk2 are NOT dark-sounding!

They are perfect! They ripped the Jade a new one! Jade?! More like some worthless piece of rock!

They rumbled against the HE90 and HE60 and now the Sennheisers are cowering in the corner crying.

And the Mk1 is better than the Mk2!

[spritzer]

Sorry to keep you waiting, damn work stuff taking up too much time. As for the Stax amps... well it's all about the money. If Stax could sell a 6k$ amp with the headphones (Japanese list prices not outrageous dealer markups) then the popular opinion of the 007 would be different but sadly this isn't the case. To make matters worse we have "upgraded" amps that aren't even close to what Stax was trying to achieve with the T2.

[wrecked_porsche]

The O2Mk1 and O2Mk2 are NOT dark-sounding!

They are perfect! They ripped the Jade a new one! Jade?! More like some worthless piece of rock!

They rumbled against the HE90 and HE60 and now the Sennheisers are cowering in the corner crying.

And the Mk1 is better than the Mk2!

Hah! You've said all of these and now you can't take any of them back.

It was all part of Birgir's plan to make you cave and give in.

[spritzer]

It was an ingenious plot of being busy and not being able to reply...

[Elephas]

It was all part of Birgir's plan to make you cave and give in.

Hey, I made him retreat and admit to so many things about the O2Mk1 and O2Mk2.

But I don't want to converse with only you and Spritzer here. Where is everyone else? Did I fart?

It was an ingenious plot of being busy and not being able to reply...

If this goes on further I'm going to be "too busy" to go to the Post Office tomorrow.

I need my daily entertainment, you know.

[wrecked_porsche]

But I don't want to converse with only you and Spritzer here.

[faust3d]

Hey, I made him retreat and admit to so many things about the O2Mk1 and O2Mk2.

But I don't want to converse with only you and Spritzer here. Where is everyone else? Did I fart?

Well you just keep on conversing about the same dark matters all the time, and frankly I think folks are getting tired. You have your opinion, fine, we get it, get over the fact that others disagree.

[Fungi]

Someone loan me an O2 and pro bias transformer/amp and I'll put in my two cents

[Duggeh]

Someone loan me an O2 and pro bias transformer/amp and I'll put in my two cents

I'll loan you a kettle cord for a Stax amp. Youll have to get the other bits from other people.