The Headcase Stax thread

[kevin gilmore]

it would probably have to be all surface mount, so that is a fair bit of work

[astrostar59]

Oh my. It is a controversial product for sure at this price. Kinda saying, everything before is useless, this is surpassing all previous designs with a price tag like this. MSB are a good company as regards DAC designs though, albeit a bit pricey maybe?

Couple of annoying things to me.

1. The amp is useless to anyone without the 80K Select DAC I believe.

2. It is doubtful any of us will get to hear it to know if it sounds amazing or not.

However iSquirrel is a knowledgable audiophile. He has an amazing speaker setup and posts on many forums. He admits he has little knowledge about Stats, but he has the Utopia and Abyss to compare to the MSB amp. So I am interested to read why he says. I think he is legit (not dealer / reseller). He just seems to have big budgets for his hobby, fare enough.

On 18 Nov 2016 at 9:37 PM, Sechtdamon said:

Good thing happened too today, as comfortation. I got this today:

 

 

This is the egmont clone that Birgir bought from China website. I was thinking for a long time for amplifier upgrade but I did not want to take 10 steps at a time, cuz I really want to progress slowly, for it's better and joyful to do. So with Birgir helping me a lot about lots of things, I bought it for the half of the price Birgir spent on it (not a discount, you can see how much he spent on this topic).

Amplifier is extremely good for the money I spent, I've never listened it before modified but I read how bad it was before modified by him. But hey, he has magical hands. I mean, It is better than current top tier amps of Stax, imho.

Thanks again Birgir.

 

ps: I sold the bubble wraps and made some profit.

 

Btw, I started to work about that top closure immediately. For a long time I wanted to work on granite. I'm making a granite cover for top of it. If I can succeed, I'll let you know when I start to work on full granite enclosures.

 

And here is my current humble system:

 

 

Nice looking chassis. Pity they used Google Translate for the text.

[Sechtdamon]

1 hour ago, astrostar59 said:

2. It is doubtful any of us will get to hear it to know if it sounds amazing or not.

A friend of mine listened to it at Canjam London with 009. He says it was too clinical or too netural. From his description I understand it sounds a bit soulless. And yes amp is useless w/o select dac.

I believe Dr. Gilmore and Birgir criticize engineering and knowhow problems. And I believe/know without proper engineering and designing, making something sounds good is hard. And they are pointing that.

 

Beside I totally agree with them - ofc if I can with my limited knowledge of electronics - lets consider some psychological facts:

I haven't listened it. So, if it is indeed bad, then psychologicaly speaking:

1. People like how it sounds cuz MSB made it.

2. People like how it sounds cuz of its price.

3. People like how it sounds cuz proper people hyped it.

So: using placebo effect, conditioning method, and anticipation method can alter what people hear. If we think about most of the potential buyers of this MSB system, noone but rich pricks that do not have ears to hear but want to brag about what they own. Considering they, most likely, don't have mind for skepticism cuz of nearly endless resources of money and lack of ears to differ what is good and what is bad, good work MSB!1!!

 

About Egmont,

The closure that covers the tubes is shitty and I'm changing it with granite from Afyon. I'm trying to make bigger holes but I broke 3 prototypes already and It is fucking hard to cut granite. But I'm working on it. And I have to admit, "marching tubes" are funny.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Sechtdamon
Grammar

[Dusty Chalk]

56 minutes ago, astrostar59 said:

Kinda saying, everything before is useless, this is surpassing all previous designs with a price tag like this. 

Are you saying there is some sort of connection between its price and its quality ?  That's a common misconception . 

[sorenb]

1 minute ago, Dusty Chalk said:

Are you saying there is some sort of connection between its price and its quality ?  That's a common misconception . 

Mr. Retired-to-behinde-the-bikeshed is probably pointing to the design of the price tag itself rather

[kevin gilmore]

anyone that has ever listened to the koss esp950 will agree its clinical and cold. it tests pretty well, thanks to gobs of feedback.

but lets look at the msb specs a bit

 

Dynamic Range	>140 dB
Frequency Response	0Hz-20Khz, ±0.8dB
XLR Input	75 Ohm Balanced 4Vrms Maximum
Common Mode Rejection Ratio	> 120dB CMRR @ 60Hz > 90dB CMRR @ 1kHz > 70dB CMRR @ 20kHz
Crosstalk	> 90dB Crosstalk @ 1kH > 65dB Crosstalk @ 20kHz

 

now its obviously transformer input based, so 0 hz implying dc coupled. flat out lie. and its already down by almost 1db at 20khz meaning that its slew rate limited and likely this is into no load, once you add 120pf, its going to be worse. 75 ohm input definitely implies that transformer. that dynamic range number is at least 30db off. and where is the distortion specs.

Likely the distortion specs are much worse because I don't see any opamps with piles of feedback.

stupid massively overpriced crap.

[Sechtdamon]

Well... he falls into all of my 3 diagnosis.

 

@astrostar59, my dear sir,

F.ck squirrel, f.ck others. The problem you have is you jump into all hypes and defend them as if you trully hear. If you cannot hear the difference between two shits with blind A/B testing, nothing matters, noone's opinion matters. As I understand from your posts, I believe you are accepting experienced(!) people's opinions without experiencing yourself. Don't fool yourself any more sir. I'm not writing this to insult you, but for your good. Seriously, change the way you think/believe.

If you cannot hear at all, and purchase things based on other experienced(!) people's opinions, it is wasting money for nothing.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Sechtdamon

[sorenb]

14 minutes ago, Sechtdamon said:

If you cannot hear at all, and purchase things based on other experienced(!) people's opinions

that should get some severely extensive posts comming from the bikeshed, I'm sure

[astrostar59]

1 hour ago, Dusty Chalk said:

Are you saying there is some sort of connection between its price and its quality ?  That's a common misconception . 

No, I am saying they are saying that (MSB) by charging so much over and above everything else sold to date both commercially and DIY. 

36 minutes ago, Sechtdamon said:

Well... he falls into all of my 3 diagnosis.

 

@astrostar59, my dear sir,

F.ck squirrel, f.ck others. The problem you have is you jump into all hypes and defend them as if you trully hear. If you cannot hear the difference between two shits with blind A/B testing, nothing matters, noone's opinion matters. As I understand from your posts, I believe you are accepting experienced(!) people's opinions without experiencing yourself. Don't fool yourself any more sir. I'm not writing this to insult you, but for your good. Seriously, change the way you think/believe.

If you cannot hear at all, and purchase things based on other experienced(!) people's opinions, it is wasting money for nothing.

I am saying I am interested in any review on the amp. I am hoping iSquirrel it an honest opinion. He has the Utopia and Abyss in the house, so maybe will be ok for a review? I don't trust magazines, but I do trust some posts on here and at other forums if that person seems to be knowledgable. I don't say stuff is good myself unless I get my ears around it, which in this case I won't. And most won't either. I never buy only based on reviews, I hand over cash based on my own demo's for main items in a system. 

Kevin, I think the pic of the insides in the back left area, so maybe front right area is out of shot? Pic here of the Select chassis (same footprint).

Edited November 24, 2016 by astrostar59

[Sechtdamon]

1 hour ago, astrostar59 said:

I am saying I am interested in any review on the amp. I am hoping iSquirrel it an honest opinion. He has the Utopia and Abyss in the house, so maybe will be ok for a review?

I'm talking about this. Having expensive headphones proves someone has good ear? "Seems to be knowledgeable" means having expensive gear?

You say something in one sentence about yourself, and you say something completely opposite in other. Weird.

Well, I wrote everything, read again if you like. and you are repeating yourself like 13th time.

[astrostar59]

32 minutes ago, Sechtdamon said:

I'm talking about this. Having expensive headphones proves someone has good ear? "Seems to be knowledgeable" means having expensive gear?

You say something in one sentence about yourself, and you say something completely opposite in other. Weird.

Well, I wrote everything, read again if you like. and you are repeating yourself like 13th time.

Err no, saying if the guy owns the Abyss and Utopia and just bought the 009s with his hard earned he 'may' or should be able to form an opinion he can share, that is what folk do on forums. If I owned all 3 I would do just that. Better opinion than guessing or a short demo at a show perhaps?

However, if that is not the case then WTF is the point in any of this???????

I am also curious how the Abyss and Utopia shape up to the 009s (different subject I realise).

Edited November 24, 2016 by astrostar59

[mypasswordis]

Buying audio gear seems like walking into a metaphorical minefield for the minimally informed, sometimes superimposed with the analogue of being a literal minefield. The pervasive gall of people who believe their large pocketbooks and listening impressions override fundamental engineering principles truly astounds. The fact that they don't even bother using spell check for a $37k amp is disconcerting, to say the least (not to mention the use of a "discrete passive equalization module", aka fixed tone control). Straight from their site:

A discrete passive equalization module slot is included with the amp.  This allows for slight analog adjustments of the amplifier to accommodate new headphone designs in the future.  This can also be used to tune the system for a user prefernces.

This can also be used to tune the system for a user prefernces.

This can also be used to tune the system for a user prefernces.

This can also be used to tune the system for a user prefernces.

[Dusty Chalk]

5 hours ago, Sechtdamon said:

purchase things based on other experienced(!) people's opinions, it is wasting money for nothing.

Well, no, if he has money, there's nothing wrong with basing it on others' opinions.  Just follow the right people!  I mean, that's basically the entire business model of Absolute Sound and Stereophile.  I have often espoused the value of buying "above your station" so that you don't have to worry about whether it's better or not, just for the placebo peace of mind.

[kevin gilmore]

I think you all will really like this one, a current feedback fully dc coupled fully complementary electrostatic push pull amplifier. what the msb could have been if they had decent engineers. just need to find a match for the stn9360

http://gilmore.chem.northwestern.edu/cfaelectrostat.pdf

 

 

Edited November 24, 2016 by kevin gilmore

[Sechtdamon]

2 hours ago, Dusty Chalk said:

Well, no, if he has money, there's nothing wrong with basing it on others' opinions.  Just follow the right people!  I mean, that's basically the entire business model of Absolute Sound and Stereophile.  I have often espoused the value of buying "above your station" so that you don't have to worry about whether it's better or not, just for the placebo peace of mind.

Yes Dusty, I meant that. I guess with my limited English somethings lost in translation. I put "(!)" for sarcasm. Following right people is something, and following people who has expensive, totl gear; based on "much spent, much experience" is something else. I know dozens of people who does not have a clue yet writing on some serious(!) websites, magazines.

Placebo effect on peace of mind is really another thing. I prefer neutrik or equivalent connectors for my cables, I've never tried cheap connectors so I don't know what differs actually, that can be placebo on peace of mind. Or on my recent purchase: Egmont sounds way better than 727 and 007 if i can compare them from memory (I've never got the time or chance to make an blind a/b test). This can be just because me knowing Birgir modded it and knowing it can form a placebo effect in my mind, I completely accept that. But I highly doubt if astro follows that principle.

And yes, following right people (for me they must be sceptical) can guide you to best things. If you follow people like Mike Mercer, you can't get anything useful (maybe seldomly). And from other topics he started, I highly believe, astro is following wrong people.

So I'm not against "if you have money, you can buy anything that makes you happy even with no basis/use". Hell I spent shitloads of money on books for collection. I recently paid shitload of money for a book published in 1939.

 

I should have explained my opinions better. Thanks for giving me the chance to express myself better and correcting my misunderstandable expressions Dusty, sir.

 

6 hours ago, astrostar59 said:

Better opinion than guessing or a short demo at a show perhaps?

Astro, Did I say I put stock on his opinion? I quoted him. And what Birgir and Dr. Gilmore do, be sure of it, not guessing.

 

 

2 hours ago, kevin gilmore said:

I think you all will really like this one, a current feedback fully dc coupled fully complementary electrostatic push pull amplifier. what the msb could have been if they had decent engineers. just need to find a match for the stn9360

http://gilmore.chem.northwestern.edu/cfaelectrostat.pdf

 

File/directory not found it says Dr. Gilmore. Thanks link is working now.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Sechtdamon

[kevin gilmore]

check the link again, I added something

[astrostar59]

1 hour ago, Sechtdamon said:

This can be just because me knowing Birgir modded it and knowing it can form a placebo effect in my mind, I completely accept that. But I highly doubt if astro follows that principle.

And from other topics he started, I highly believe, astro is following wrong people.

Interesting. I heard about the KGSShv on here. I then heard it in real life then bought 2. Then I heard about the carbon version one here too. Then bought one. So I do value the knowledge from you guys. And I agree 100% any unbiased and knowledgable insight on this MSB amp design is going to come from this forum for sure. Maybe 'reviews' from others who get to hear it might be somewhere else. How useful they are is up for debate for sure.

Edited November 24, 2016 by astrostar59

[Dusty Chalk]

No, not us, none of us would be stupid enough to buy one.

[johnwmclean]

I don’t have to listen to it to know it sucks.
iSquirrel is useless, ignorant of even the slightest clue as to anything technical, his profile fits MSB marketing perfectly.  

“Quite frankly I don't care what's inside, only what it sounds like.”
iSquirrel November 2016

Says it all.

[spritzer]

Ahhh, yet another high end snob who couldn't afford to buy a clue.  Buy anything with a high enough pricetag to continue that lie that he knows anything.  Utterly pathetic. 

[Spork]

Are you guys being a little hard on him?

I thought the amp was a loaner - with the option to buy if he chooses.

Now I'd never consider spending that much on an amp (probably even if I DID win the lotto) but surely plenty of you would be happy to try it if trialling was free?

[johnwmclean]

Maybe “useless” was a tad strong, the rest I’ll stand by.
Welcome by the way, I’ll be in Tasmania next week on holidays!

 

Edited November 25, 2016 by johnwmclean

[Dusty Chalk]

2 hours ago, Spork said:

Are you guys being a little hard on him?

Relative to what?  Please read your welcome message.

[Spork]

2 hours ago, johnwmclean said:

Maybe “useless” was a tad strong, the rest I’ll stand by.
Welcome by the way, I’ll be in Tasmania next week on holidays!

 

 

We'll try to put on some decent weather for you. Bring shorts, jumpers and wet weather gear - you might find you need all of it during the course of a single day at the moment.

 

2 hours ago, Dusty Chalk said:

Relative to what?  Please read your welcome message.

Relative to standards of behaviour on most of the forums I've been a part of.

No welcome message in my inbox, and I can't find one in my emails. Maybe it went into the junk folder. Please don't tell me I've breached the T&C in my very first post on here.

[Sechtdamon]

36 minutes ago, Spork said:

Relative to standards of behaviour on most of the forums I've been a part of.

What makes you think Head-Case can be considered one of the forums you've been part of? (I've made a similar mistake before, I strongly suggest not to do.)

 

Let me make things tad bit easy for you, here is the welcome message:

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Sechtdamon