The Headcase Stax thread

[grawk]

or they know their market. Time will tell.

[spritzer]

I do think that MSB have gone completely off the rails in terms of pricing and marketing bullshit.  They've hit on the simple fact, more expensive is better.  Nobody in their right mind would put the Woo WES, RSA A-10 and the BHSE in the same category of capable amps but people do it all the time as they cost the same.  I don't know how many times I've had to field the question, "how can the 007 be better than the 009 when the latter is more expensive?". 

As for the MSB piece, not a chance that it uses transformers.  Also the claims that it "needs" the MSB dac are also false.  The DAC will output some voltage (can't find the specs but say 7.6V max like my DAC3) and handle volume/balance control duties.  That makes this a bog standard electrostatic amp as there is no way around the high gain needed to drive electrostatics.  Given the high output voltage of the dac (and since it is a constant you can design around) they could get away with slightly lower gain but not a whole lot. 

At the end of the day this is no different to me simply omitting the volume control on a Carbon so that it can be driven directly.  The small little fact that they are charging 9 times as much for it makes me go WTF??  Granted, milled from solid chassis are not cheap and I'm moving into that direction as well. 

[johnwmclean]

MSB marketing is certainly weird, ultra expensive products with horrible cheap advertising.

[Dave R]

I'd always believed the more an audio piece cost, the better it should sound, but the Yggy has changed my thought on that.

[wink]

http://top101news.com/2015-2016-2017-2018/news/electronics/most-expensive-headphones-brands-world/

 

 

[Dave R]

Here are some photos of the acrylic case I had made for my 009's.

I opted for it having a door just so I wouldn't have to keep removing it to get to those Earspeakers.

On the back panel are some holes I asked for, those are to try and offer some kind of ventilation.

 

 

[sorenb]

2 minutes ago, Dave R said:

Here are some photos of the acrylic case I had made for my 009's.

I opted for it having a door just so I wouldn't have to keep removing it to get to those Earspeakers.

On the back panel are some holes I asked for, those are to try and offer some kind of ventilation.

Can understand the reasoning for easy access, but one door seems a bit cheapo ... why didn't you opt for a double door ? symmetry seems important!

[3x0]

3 hours ago, spritzer said:

Granted, milled from solid chassis are not cheap and I'm moving into that direction as well. 

Impressive -- looking forward to seeing the results. Seems like thermal dissipation would be considerably more challenging going this route (among other things).

[Dave R]

1 hour ago, sorenb said:

Can understand the reasoning for easy access, but one door seems a bit cheapo ... why didn't you opt for a double door ? symmetry seems important!

I never thought about a double door, but even with the single door, that case was quite expensive.

[sejsel]

Skimming through this thread... just looked out of coincidence on one retailer's page in Denmark... 

no advertising by any means, so please remove the link if needed, or notify me to do so.

http://hifi-freaks.dk/webshop//produkter-hovedtelefoner-saet-forstaerker-hovedtelefon-stax-sr-007-sr-007mkii-srm-007tii-p-349.html

Now, looking at the price point (not knowing a squat about the quality of the amp itself) the question naturally arising is:

What is the point of dealing with the dynamic system at all (or orthos, for that matter) - pricewise and regarding the sound quality?

This is really honest question on my behalf... it just seems striking that for this price you can get electrostats...

 

[spritzer]

Well the amp is not good but the headphones are excellent.  Stax are stuck in a bind with their more expensive amps, the 727 (which I currently have one here) has a gross design decision which is just wrong and needs to be fixed. 

The 007t uses the wrong tubes for the job and there really aren't any good ones out there for Stax to use.  They also have this morbid fear of amplifier size and weight (both making everything about them more expensive) so they are locked in place. 

[TMoney]

6 hours ago, spritzer said:

I do think that MSB have gone completely off the rails in terms of pricing and marketing bullshit.  They've hit on the simple fact, more expensive is better.  Nobody in their right mind would put the Woo WES, RSA A-10 and the BHSE in the same category of capable amps but people do it all the time as they cost the same.  I don't know how many times I've had to field the question, "how can the 007 be better than the 009 when the latter is more expensive?". 

As for the MSB piece, not a chance that it uses transformers.  Also the claims that it "needs" the MSB dac are also false.  The DAC will output some voltage (can't find the specs but say 7.6V max like my DAC3) and handle volume/balance control duties.  That makes this a bog standard electrostatic amp as there is no way around the high gain needed to drive electrostatics.  Given the high output voltage of the dac (and since it is a constant you can design around) they could get away with slightly lower gain but not a whole lot. 

At the end of the day this is no different to me simply omitting the volume control on a Carbon so that it can be driven directly.  The small little fact that they are charging 9 times as much for it makes me go WTF??  Granted, milled from solid chassis are not cheap and I'm moving into that direction as well. 

RE: MSB

If this is true then maybe they need to raise $$$ for their founders legal defense fees?

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/the-boss-of-msb-raped-his-own-daughters.1946/

[GeorgeP]

16 minutes ago, TMoney said:

RE: MSB

If this is true then maybe they need to raise $$$ for their founders legal defense fees?

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/the-boss-of-msb-raped-his-own-daughters.1946/

Fuck, if true this is certainly worse than the voluntary raping that his customers receive.

[sejsel]

1 hour ago, spritzer said:

Well the amp is not good but the headphones are excellent.  Stax are stuck in a bind with their more expensive amps, the 727 (which I currently have one here) has a gross design decision which is just wrong and needs to be fixed. 

The 007t uses the wrong tubes for the job and there really aren't any good ones out there for Stax to use.  They also have this morbid fear of amplifier size and weight (both making everything about them more expensive) so they are locked in place. 

Reading from the different sources (not only the head-case.org, but mostly), everything points about what you've said about the amp... opting to go with the non-stax (on not the one at the link) amp would be the option... funny though... as a side note: the founder of the beyerdynamic (I have read somewhere) reportedly deemed out the electrostat technology as something that will never be optimal for headphones...

I actually have the reverse "illness", I have always thought that those stack amps look too small... I would actually love to have an electrostat amp of the size of the Studio Six or one of the Apex amps...

Again, more to the point... the price distribution of the cans themselves and the amp is telling :

http://hifi-freaks.dk/webshop//produkter-hovedtelefoner-hovedtelefoner-stax-sr-007ii-p-359.html

if you look at the pricing of the package, amp + can.

While decent SR007 rig is - well - pricey, when you look at the top of the line dynamic and ortho- amps + cans vs. SR007 + good electrostat amp... well, the question remains, i guess even pricewise... leaps in the sound quality of the dynamic systems have been admittedly made over the years, but still... questionmark on why one would opt as of today for the dynamic system vs. making the long-term investment on SR007mkII based one.

There were some (endless?) debates whether electrostats cut it for the bass-heavy music, i just wonder whether the whole issue was really the amps used and not the cans themselves..

 

 

[spritzer]

If Stax were selling garbage like the Studio Six then they would have no problem with bigger and heavier amps.  The markup on the Studio Six is insane compared to what Stax are doing. 

I don't think Dynamics have progressed so much in the last few years except for the HD800.  I don't like any of the planars as they are just lackluster or some even just sound odd. 

Electrostatics have plenty of bass and a properly driven and setup 007 will outperform anything you can throw at them. 

1 hour ago, TMoney said:

RE: MSB

If this is true then maybe they need to raise $$$ for their founders legal defense fees?

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/the-boss-of-msb-raped-his-own-daughters.1946/

For fucks sake...    I don't buy the company raising funds for the owner but yeah... buy dCS gear? 

[sejsel]

Overbuilt staff rule (when done properly)...

HD800, well, yes, thinking again, +1 on that - some Beyerdynamic came out, K812 (reportedly not measuring as well as HD800)...

But HD800 started an ugly trend of serious, major jump in prices of the cans ...

Orthos - never tried any of them, some swear by them, others even returned to supposedly much lesser and cheaper dynamics, claiming that they never found in them what they already had in their dynamics, so... who knows...

Speaking of overbuilt stuff (physically and otherwise), whatever happened to the thread where the same overbuilt stuff was supposed to be well possible to make for like 500 $ max ? I remember some things said about the amp design, some caps bleeding into circuit, etc...

 Btw., posting the pic of something (custom) built by some former Copland engineer...

Anything sized less than (about) this (not to mention that puny stax amp(s) ) should be prohibited by the law . Make stuff properly, god dammit.

[spritzer]

Well size isn't everything, it's what you can cram in a small box that counts...    My KGSSHV is smaller than the Stax amps but is much more powerful and with a completely regulated power supply.  The Carbon isn't much bigger and more than twice as powerful than the mini... 

Plenty of threads here where we rip the amps a new one.  We've not been as active in this but that should change shortly.  Time to expose the shit that's popular on HF. 

Something to offset the fucked up news above, a pic of the ever growing Stax museum.  I clearly need a second display case in the living room:

009, SR-Omega and HE90 on the top shelf

Two SR-1's, SR-2, SR-3 and SR-5 on the next shelf

The 404LE, SR-SC1, Lambda Signature, Lambda Nova Signature and Lambda Pro

Being all abandoned at the bottom is the SR-X Mk1. 

A lot of other headphones all over the house plus a lot more in various stages of restoration. 

[Craig Sawyers]

Oh oh oh - I cannot cope with such a headphone overload.  Phzzt phzzt grkkk

 

Edited April 22, 2016 by Craig Sawyers

[sejsel]

32 minutes ago, spritzer said:

Well size isn't everything, it's what you can cram in a small box that counts...    My KGSSHV is smaller than the Stax amps but is much more powerful and with a completely regulated power supply.  The Carbon isn't much bigger and more than twice as powerful than the mini... 

Plenty of threads here where we rip the amps a new one.  We've not been as active in this but that should change shortly.  Time to expose the shit that's popular on HF. 

Something to offset the fucked up news above, a pic of the ever growing Stax museum.  I clearly need a second display case in the living room:

009, SR-Omega and HE90 on the top shelf

Two SR-1's, SR-2, SR-3 and SR-5 on the next shelf

The 404LE, SR-SC1, Lambda Signature, Lambda Nova Signature and Lambda Pro

Being all abandoned at the bottom is the SR-X Mk1. 

A lot of other headphones all over the house plus a lot more in various stages of restoration. 

Thanks for the offset... now for me : off to the nearest bridge and jump...

Ever considered some charity work, Birgir ?

Now, joke aside, I think there's far more serious issue raised by the question of dissecting amps, building the same (only improved though) staff or the far lesser price.... it really boils down to the matter of the state of the "industry" and how to improve it...

Not really wanting to sound pretentious (with all risk to get there inadvertently), just a food for thought.

Oh, another thing, spritzer, You have mentioned earlier that you are not sure you would want to become a brand.

That being entirely (within) your discression, I for one believe it is a darn shame, nothing wrong with earning something and at the time improving the state of the industry or business for what could become a vast array of customers and - well - heafiers -headcasers, audiofiles, etc. 

Someone said that appreciating a good quality (and well engineered) sound and music is really a matter of culture... couldn't be more true.

[spritzer]

Well I'm being pushed hard to make the amps a more permanent thing.  I'm taking it under serious consideration as I now have the space to truly ramp up production.  

On another note, I'm fucking furious right now.  So that 4070 I was talking about, I got it to perform better but the treble was still out of control.  Something was off so I decided to swap out the earpads to make the fix more permanent.  Well I remove the inlays and my heart just sank as they were nice and shiny silver...    Dig deeper and I see this:

No wonder they are so treble happy, they have fucking SR-507 drivers!!!    So it was Stax in Japan who did this and could not properly attach the new earpads.  I expect this shit from Yama's but not from the flipping factory. 

Now we know one thing though, what happens when older Lambdas are sent in for service now.  They glue the entire assembly to the baffle, I certainly can't see any screws. 

...and now a perfectly good SR-404 has to die. 

Edited April 23, 2016 by spritzer

[sejsel]

Just started to read on (from its beginning) old thread... very interesting... will do some reading on it now to see what eventually happened with that 1.2k V amp project...

 

1 hour ago, spritzer said:

Well I'm being pushed hard to make the amps a more permanent thing.  I'm taking it under serious consideration as I now have the space to truly ramp up production.  

On another note, I'm fucking furious right now.  So that 4070 I was talking about, I got it to perform better but the treble was still out of control.  Something was off so I decided to swap out the earpads to make the fix more permanent.  Well I remove the inlays and my heart just sank as they were nice and shiny silver...    Dig deeper and I see this:

No wonder they are so treble happy, they have fucking SR-507 drivers!!!    So it was Stax in Japan who did this and could not properly attach the new earpads.  I expect this shit from Yama's but not from the flipping factory. 

Now we know one thing though, what happens when older Lambdas are sent in for service now.  They glue the entire assembly to the baffle, I certainly can't see any screws. 

...and now a perfectly good SR-404 has to die. 

 

Still probably doesn't match this "venture"

 

On 20/11/2007 at 10:03 PM, spritzer said:

 

Those mistakes are there to learn from. I've blown up 1 KGSS board and a PSU all because I soldered in the wrong resistor in the wrong place. It was really impressive when it went up in smoke...

 

[spritzer]

You haven't lived until you've blown something up... 

[sejsel]

Furthest I've come was launching a led diode to the ceiling from the circuit board... no countdown prior...

 

[Craig Sawyers]

When I was 16 I discovered the difference between rms and peak by using a capacitor across a mains switch of an amp I had built.  BANG.  That was the first in a catalog of stupidity over the decades - the last was destroying quite a lot of my Tektronix 577 curve tracer by plugging the power supply back in with the connector one pin along.  Fist I knew I had a problem was when the top of a 741 op amp blew across the room smoking.  Still repairing that......

[sejsel]

... just when I had hopes 'bout someone building me an amp here... confidence level rising...  

Edited April 23, 2016 by sejsel
primary web browser doesn't allow editing, problems with inserting smilies as well