The analog thread.

[mikeymad]

If it can for $250 I would be happy with that... don't really see it happening..

[blessingx]

So want one to see what's possible for this price.

Anyone have a good justification I can use for a second table as someone living in an one bedroom apartment? 

[Voltron]

Toilet rig?

[Grahame]

So want one to see what's possible for this price. Anyone have a good justification I can use for a second table as someone living in an one bedroom apartment? 

Easy, avoid single point of failure. The benefit is Ric is a still a Happy Panda, if the first turntable fails, vs the downside of Ric being a Sad Panda if there is no failover to the second turntable.

[CarlSeibert]

And what of the person who already HAS two 'tables?

[Dusty Chalk]

There's RAID level 1, and then there are other RAID levels.

[mulveling]

Been playing with phono stage stuff again...Cinemag 1131 SUT, Eddie Current Transcription, and Rogue Ares compared to my VAC preamp's built-in MC/MM. I'd like to wean myself off the VAC's phono so I can sell it. I will not be upgrading to VAC's new $50K [Price]Statement Phono.

 

The Ares has some excellent qualities, but overall sounds like it was voiced by a guy who listens to more digital than vinyl; I like vinyl to sound rich & warm. I love my Rogue pre/power, but I'm just not feeling it here. The EC is a real nice surprise, especially at just $700 used. It and the VAC built-in both have superb voicing, even with stock tubes. It's close, but the EC may have the edge overall. So that may do it for me -- I should probably just stop here and enjoy for (at least) a year. But of course, I'm curious about those who've had experience with the EC, especially owners: what did you settle on? Are you still running it or did you upgrade, and if the latter, what did it take to beat the Transcription?

 

On to the SUTs -- I like what the Bob's Devices 1131 does from the midrange & up, but last night comparing to the 3440 (built-in to the EC), it seemed that the 3440 not only had more bass "bloom", but also more bass power as well. I gotta admit, I'd have expected a more clear-cut victory for the 1131 given the price differential. Any users of the 1131 still out there? The VAC uses Lundahls (I think LL9206), and those are darn nice for the money as well. The Rogue uses 3440 internally, and it's pretty clear it doesn't get its voicing from the SUT. 

Edited February 4, 2013 by mulveling

[luvdunhill]

In general I do not like SUT, I prefer discrete devices for the first gain stage. If I was forced to choose one, though, I would say the Sowter 8055 with the upgraded wire option. I have tried maybe 5 other manufacturers.

[jp11801]

I shot the 3440 and the 1131 out after I bought the 1131 and far preferred the 1131 I did not focus on the bass just overall impressions had me listing the 3440 soon after I got the 1131 blues sut from Bob. 

[deepak]

I was not a big fan of the 3440. Taking it out from before my Pearl and turning up the headphone amps (or preamp) was my preference. YMMV though, I am a tube lover, but generally prefer more modern implementations like CCS loading and stuff so I guess I lean more towards the neutral/analytical preference wise.

[mulveling]

I shot the 3440 and the 1131 out after I bought the 1131 and far preferred the 1131 I did not focus on the bass just overall impressions had me listing the 3440 soon after I got the 1131 blues sut from Bob. 

 

Yeah -- the 1131 on the VAC (bypassing its Lundahls) had given me a great initial impression, but yesterday with the 1131 & EC there were times I was wishing for more "meat on the bones". Patched in the EC's 3440, and there it was. I'll listen a few more times and see how this sorts out. The midrange did seem less "smeared" and cleaner on the 1131, but dammit I like how hard these speakers hit when everything's just right, and I'm reluctant to sacrifice anything there if it comes down to that. Perhaps my Koetsu doesn't have extra bass impact to spare, whereas something like an Ortofon Windfeld would have ridiculous impact with any of these combinations (too bad I hated its recessed midrange and sizzle up top).

 

In general I do not like SUT, I prefer discrete devices for the first gain stage. If I was forced to choose one, though, I would say the Sowter 8055 with the upgraded wire option. I have tried maybe 5 other manufacturers.

 

It's something I'd consider. Had a Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 with a JFET based MC gain stage (into a 4x 6922 MM stage), and it was lovely, if a bit over-warm (and lacking some detail, which is what got me looking for better). I love tubes, but those JFETs did not offend. I don't need a ton of gain; 54-60dB would do. Do you use a standalone headamp or an integrated MC phono stage?

Edited February 5, 2013 by mulveling

[mulveling]

There certainly is a notable difference between the balance of EC's internal 3440 vs. Bob's 1131 in my system. The latter has better clarity but is drier, and definitely has less bass impact. Also, the 3440 makes me want to push the Tannoy 1kHz+ shelving control up to +1.5 dB (sounds great that way), while the 1131 makes we want to put it back to flat 0.0. Two possibilities:

 

1. There's a loading difference between the 2 options; this Transcription might have a non-standard loading in the MC and/or MM input. I see what looks like a 50K resistor in each barrier strip, but don't know if that affects MC and/or MM loading, or if that's even the "stock" resistor -- eddiecurrent.com doesn't have manuals (that I can find), so I'll call Craig up to see what's going on here.

 

2. (the less likely culprit) I've had to use a different gain setting in my preamp between the 2, and the input impedance does go lower as you bump up gain (a 5 position knob) -- but we're talking something like 250K vs 150K here, which shouldn't be a big deal. 

Edited February 5, 2013 by mulveling

[deepak]

Reks I would replace the cart, just so you know your vinyl is seeing a fresh stylus, worn stylii can damage stuff. Then I'd hold off on upgrading anything else to see if vinyl really is for you.

 

A few hundred is a pretty decent budget. I would personally avoid any Grado, they do some weird stuff like hum, track poorly, odd frequency response, blah blah. I would probably go for an Ortofon or Soundsmith that fits your budget.

[deepak]

. 

 

p.s. i know vinyl is for me, already.

Cool, just didn't want you to be out a lot of money/time. It adds up when you start cleaning vinyl, buying setup tools, replacing inner sleeves, etc.

 

For $300 I would personally get a Soundsmith Otello: http://www.sound-smith.com/cartridges/otello.html

 

While I have not heard it I've heard The Ebony and have a lot of needle drops done with a Sussuro Paua. They track very well, and have nice sound quality.

 

Unfortunately for phonos under $1000 the only ones I've really heard are DIY.

[grawk]

Best investment: rcm

[deepak]

Best investment: rcm

Yeah if you buy a lot of used vinyl. You don't have to spend crazy money on one either. I had a Nitty Gritty, VPI 16.5 and Loricraft. Sold the Loricraft and bought another 16.5. I realized the type of cleaning fluid makes a far far bigger difference than the machine.

[deepak]

considering that i have almost no money in this, spending $600 on a record cleaner doesn't seem like the best use, at the moment.

Understandable. But it's IMO essential down the line. Probably more so than a new phono or table. But not as sexy

[grawk]

you don't have to spend $600 on a machine.  I spent like $40 on a steamer.  Search for jp#s thread, or just ask him the model #

 

Makes way more difference than a new phonostage, or cart, or table.

[CarlSeibert]

A record cleaning machine is very DIY-able. $60 or $70 and a good afternoon's work and you're good to go. Just assess the junk you have available and go from there. I'll send you pictures of mine if you want.

[jp11801]

The Gem Dandy is fantastic and arguably as good or better than a vacuum based unit. It is super messy and a bad parts to retail price ratio.yhat said I'd recommend it for cleaning any non collectable LP

[deepak]

In general I do not like SUT, I prefer discrete devices for the first gain stage. If I was forced to choose one, though, I would say the Sowter 8055 with the upgraded wire option. I have tried maybe 5 other manufacturers.

Just curious do you feel the same about line level input transformers for stepping up gain?

[CarlSeibert]

Here's my RCM. I built this thing about twenty years ago in my old apartment, with hand tools and whatever was at hand. If I was to build it today, it would be a whole lot snazzier, with hardwoods and acrylic and maybe even workmanship. But it probably wouldn't clean records any better. This is design-decisions-are-all-based-on-using-the-stuff-you-have-at-hand-and-the-tools-you-happen-to-have sort of project.  

 

 

 

 

I started out with a set of Nitty Gritty lips and went from there. So I ended up with a pretty shameless Nitty Gritty clone. All I was going for was a plenum to hook a vacuum to, something to hold the lips and a sub platter with which to rotate the record. I made the plenum be the whole structure (A Rat Shack project box. A small Pelican case would work. About anything would work.) but you wouldn't have to do that, say, if you started with a broken turntable from a thrift store. In which case, a piece of PVC pipe would do it.

 

 

My lips are mounted on a piece of CPVC plumbing pipe, sawed in half. I forget how I made the slot. A broken hacksaw blade, a Dremel tool. who knows. The end pieces are craft store plastic, ABS, I assume. The "bearing" is a piece of wooden dowel in a half-blind (so that it's not a huge leak) hole in a piece of wood under the top of the box. The record spindle is the same piece of dowel, turned down by chucking it in a drill and running it against sandpaper. That's actually a piece of cleverness. By making the bearing spindle and record spindle out of the same piece, you don't have to worry about concentricity. All you have to do is get the lips more or less lined up with the bearing hole. I doubt I had any measurement or layout instruments beyond a ruler or maybe a combination square in those days.The spindle doesn't reach the bottom of the hole. There's no ball. The actual bearing, such as it is, is a stock of thin nylon washers (from the hardware store) between the case and the platter. That's also how I adjusted the height of the platter to match the lips. The platter is ABS from the craft store (but it could be anything) and the mat is whatever piece of rubber that wasn't quick enough to get out of the way of an Exacto. Nothing needs to be accurate, actually round, or rigid.

 

 

The hole in the back is sized to be about mid way up the taper of an inch and a quarter vacuum cleaner hose connector. The other holes can be covered with tape to regulate the strength of the vacuum.

 

 

 

Right now I'm using a vacuum head from Home Depot that goes on a five gallon bucket as my vacuum source. i have used a regular shop vac and one of those little one gallon jobs in the past. Basically, anything will work. The "record clamp" is a piece of chipboard with a piece of mouse pad glued on the bottom.  Now that I know a little about woodworking, it is really offensive to my sensibilities, but it does turn the record just fine.

 

 

I made a bunch of brushes (at bottom) that are pretty much clones of the Nitty Gritty brush (the next one up). There's nothing to say that the round part needs to be the diameter of the Nitty Gritty ones. It looks like the investment I made in  a piece of 5/8s dowel was the deciding factor there. Just a cylinder of some sort (like the thing on top) would do fine. The real work is done by the velvet on the brush. A tiny amount of velvet will make a lifetime supply of brushes, so just go to the cloth store and buy some of every kind they've got and experiment on some dollar bin records. Some kinds clean way better than others. Some leave tiny bits of fibers behind. You'll need a grooming brush. The little round one works. So does a toothbrush.

 

You could make your own lips by the same process of experimentation. I didn't bother.

 

 

I've done double stick tape and hot glue to fasten the velvet to the brush. It doesn't matter. Just keep the fastening away from  the part that comes in contact with the record. I made one brush that clamped the velvet in place mechanically. If you make your brush body out of wood, over time, the fluid will raise the grain of the wood and you'll have to sand it down again to make sure your brush stays smooth. If I were to make some brushes now, I'd use plastic for the cylinder. (Acrylic rod with a hardwood handle would be fun. A 10 cent piece of PVC pipe would be more sensible.)

 

 

Since I ended up with a Nitty Gritty cone, I ended up with Nitty Gritty issues as well. One of which is that while you wash the first side of the record, the other side is running against your lips and covering them with filth. You'll spend half your time grooming the lips. So I eventually went to Bed Bath and Beyond and got a vinyl pad that's meant to go in the bottom of a sink (to keep glasses from breaking, I think) I place the record on said vinyl pad to wash the first side and that way the lips first come in contact with the record while vacuuming the first side and they don't get anywhere near as dirty.

 

You certainly don't have to make the lips on the bottom, particularly if you start out with an old turntable. You could make the platter support the whole record and make the lips on a wand, like the VPI. All you would need to do is to fabricate a wand mechanism out of telescoping tubes or hose or something and figure out how to keep the wand radial to the record and in contact with it when it should be and to move it out of the way when it shouldn't.  If I ever run into the makings, I'd be tempted to do another machine with that kind of design.

 

I'd also really like to make a motor-driven platter, although honestly, it really isn't much effort to turn the record by hand.

 

This isn't a precise affair. And it isn't like plumbing, where there's 65 psi of water pressure to blow everything to bits if you don't make your joints perfectly. If it leaks a little, who cares. Any likely vacuum source will have way more capacity than you'll actually need. Whatever you find to in the way of parts and materials can probably be convinced to work.  If you feel the mood, just go for it. If pretty isn't an object, an afternoon, maybe two, and you're there. And you've saved 600 bucks.

 

Oh. I have a foot pedal switch to turn the vacuum on and off. That makes life easier. And working out some sort of muffling/sound deadening for the vacuum helps. You could put it in the closet or the next room, even.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2013 by CarlSeibert

[deepak]

Jacob, I bet this will be a nice step up from the NAD PP-2. $100 with case, you assemble. I hope Jim is able to get the required backing.

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1907446723/bugle2-a-diy-phono-preamp

[mikeymad]

hmm might be just the thing for my u-turn rig -- an all kickstarter stage..

[jp11801]

Just picked up a Transfiguration Spirit cart, wow very good. Slightly thin but very balanced, detailed with great tracking. Makes me wonder what do you get moving up the line. Not too shabby for $450 for a lightly used cart.