The analog thread.

[deepak]

Got to hear the upgraded version of the Aesthetix IO again yesterday for a longer period of time. The doc that owns the replinthed Garrard 301/Triplanar/EMT brought it down and we did some shoot outs between it and the EAR 324. The Aesthetix is scary good with the recent jazz 45 rpm reissues. Operation was very quiet too for a phono that has so many tube gain stages. Anyone have any idea what the purpose of EL34s in the power supply are?

[luvdunhill]

Anyone have any idea what the purpose of EL34s in the power supply are?

deepak: I believe they are used as a series pass element configured as cathode follower

Edited May 18, 2010 by luvdunhill

[swt61]

Relax and enjoy the beautiful glow.

[deepak]

deepak: I believe they are used as a series pass element configured as cathode follower

Thanks! Have you compared the Aesthetix to the XOno or Klyne?

[mulveling]

I should have taken to setting up my own carts a long time ago - very rewarding. Nothing to be scurred of, with good vision and a bit of reading.

The Kontrapunkt c on my SOTA Star & FR64fx arm definitely needed some serious dialing in. The VTA was set a few mm too high (cart was riding on its toes too much), the VTF was too low (2.0g when it should be 2.5g), and the anti-skate was wonky (put it to a less crazy setting for now, and will fine tune with a test disk soon). You can really hear the differences. Also have a new wooden headshell to try to save some mass.

The Merrill Heirloom/ET2 (linear air bearing arm) setup had a vintage Ortofon MC20 that sounded excellent in the mids up (smoother than the SOTA setup), but had anemic bass and whacked the woofers like crazy at ~ 2 Hz from off-center spindle holes (no record is perfect). The jumpy suspension of the Merill Hierloom doesn't help matters. Turns out the MC20 is an unusual cart with "interesting" specs:

* 3dB point is at 5Hz (much lower than most carts and will indeed pickup nasty subsonic noise & warps far better than most)

* 0.07 mV output - it takes most of my system's not inconsiderable gain to get it going, and by then any hum/buzz will be a roar

* dynamic compliance 25 - This is VERY high for a low output MC cart, and interacts badly with the ET2's high lateral moving mass of 25-35g (depending on counterweight configuration).

I noticed something was awry when I noticed the woofers casting a SHADOW over the tweeter horn while playing at loud volumes. MASSIVE excursion at 2Hz, very scary. Fortunately there was no warning noise or any detectable sonic aberration - the Tannoys are really tough speakers. Still, that MC20 had to go. I finally mounted a Kontrapunkt "a" on the ET2 arm - it's actually a really nice arm to setup once you get used to it (assuming it's already mounted properly). Azimuth, overhang, VTA and VTF are all fairly easy to dial in. This setup still oscillates the woofers a little at 2Hz, but it's WAY damped down from the excursion it had with the MC20 - the "a" is spec'd down to only 20Hz, which is good in this case.

This setup is really refreshing - I'm in the phase where I want to re-listen to all the records I like again, to hear them in this new light. Over the next few days I'll figure out if the differences are from omission, a more accurate portrayal, or both (ie: different but equal). The mids & highs are definitely smoother than with either Kontrapunkt cart on the SOTA/FR64. The bass impact, that the MC20 was lacking, is amazing - possibly a bit better than the SOTA setup. Dynamics are great too. Soundstage depth is superb, width perhaps a bit narrow but this may be the fault of the "a". On the FR64 it was clear that the "c" is the better cart of the two, so it'll be really interesting to try the "c" on the ET2. I think the "a" is sounding better on the ET2 than it was on the FR64, but then there is some more dialing in to do with that arm (headshell, anti-skate).

I've also been trying lower resistive loading loading - I like both 20 ohms and 50 ohms better than 100 ohms - these settings are noticeably smoother. In particular, 20 ohms is lower than typically recommended for a 5-ohm coil, but it sounds great!

Also, I've finally noticed some speed instability issues with the SOTA, on the very start of a listening session (doesn't last long). Hence the drive to get the Merrill setup going This summer might be a good time to get the SOTA upgraded to Nova V specs, assuming the Merrill/ET2 doesn't completely win my favor (there too upgrades are available).

Tomorrow I'll get to try a Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 Signature in my setup. It's a hybrid, 6922 tubes & FET, stage. Plenty of toys old and new to enjoy, along with a new semi-skill of setting up the damn carts. Fun times!

[n_maher]

Mike, are you serious, 2Hz? I thought that all (or at least most?) phono pre's had some sort of high pass filter to eliminate the otherwise inaudible low end to specifically avoid cooking woofers?

[mulveling]

Nate, I thought so too, but you can see the woofers flapping slowly at a large excursion, clear as day. I think that the Merrill suspension and the ET2 arm are just an extremely volatile mix with regards to subsonic issues. The starting amplitude must be so huge that it gets through the standard filtering and RIAA curve. The Rogue Apollo monoblocks I'm using can pass such low frequencies through their output transformers, I believe (and SS amps would likely have the same issue). Hell, I sure didn't notice it until I got the new monoblocks.

I know there are other Merrill Heirlooms with the ET2 arm, so I guess it wasn't just the 1-off choice of an oddball There may be more mitigating factors in those cases, like low compliance carts and tube amps that roll off fast below 10Hz. While I think each component is well built and sounds great (even together), I think this issue could be considered a deal breaker for the pairing.

Tonight makes 3 phono stages I've tried on this table/arm: GCPH, Benz PP-1, and now a Sonic Frontiers Phono 1. The move to a lower compliance Kontrapunkt "a" cart (from the MC20) helped, but didn't eliminate it. The Benz is the only usable stage at this point, because it does indeed have an additional rumble filter (so say the specs) that kicks in @ 10Hz - even still you can see the flapping, but it's damped down to a non-alarming excursion level at my listening volumes. With the GCPH and Phono 1, it's just ridiculous. Even with the volume turned down somewhat, I can see the woofers start flapping in response to my walking over towards the table (the floor is not close to concrete slab but it's still fairly solid), unless I tiptoe extremely carefully. If the volume was up and the table itself gets bumped, I shudder to think what would happen - those monoblocks can push > 1000 Watt transients. Best to play it safe.

On the upside, tonight I auditioned the Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 with the SOTA/FR64fx/Kontrapunkt "c" setup. Honestly it's sounding a lot better than the Benz PP-1 and the GCPH did on that table. With the Phono 1, I can push the loading back up towards 100 ohms and not get that slight trace of harshness I'd been fighting with. I can also bump the VTA level back up a notch and still preserve the natural, neutral tone I want. The result is a wider, more open sound. If it sounds as good the next few nights as it did tonight, then it'll be staying here. Has the handsome gold faceplate too

[tom_hankins]

I wish my BAT had a rumble filter on it. I get some movement most of the time. The Sim was the only phonostage that had a filter that completely knocked the rumble out. The ASR had the filter but didnt seem to make any difference in the amount of movement without sound my speakers get. With The Arye and Dynavector still had a bunch. I dont worry that much about the woofers, but do wonder what kind of strain it puts on the amps to constantly be working that hard to try produce that kind of signal? I wonder what kind of filter could be put in the chain and what the sonic effects would be?

[luvdunhill]

It's literally two parts per channel. The Pass Xono definitely has one implemented.

deepak: nope, I haven't had a chance to really compare any solid state to any tube design side by side. If I was considering a tube phono stage, I'd probably go with one of the new DIY designs, like "His Master's Noise" or old standby, the RTP3.

[luvdunhill]

I decided to pick up a Rega P3-24, the newest incarnation of a table I've owned 3 or 4 times already. My DIY project is languishing and I want to get back to the sweet, sweet music. I have some idea in my mind of what these sounded like, despite the rest of the gear chain changing a lot over this same time period. Anyways, we'll see how it sounds. I'll have a RB301 as well as my AT-1005mk2 arm and a couple Ortofon carts and my ZYX Bloom to play with. I'd like to find a small phono stage to play with, as my two box affair is quite large and my integrated only has a single pair of balanced inputs. I have an idea of two that consists of a JFET front-end ala the Xono with a opamp second gain stage (gasp) and a MOSFET output, similar to the balanced driver of the Xono. Small is the key here.

[zippy2001]

aaarrgghh

well I have a few carts and NONE really totally float my boat.

Denon 103 FL, great tone but not as detailed as I'd like

Denon DL-S1 another great cart from Denon detail and soundstage a plenty but maybe not the last word in tone and bass slam

Sumiko Talisman S, fairly legendary cart, that I think has seen better days. It is bright in my system but I am considering a soundsmith retip/cantilever so see what that brings

almost bought an Jan Alaertes cart this morning but I am gun shy as it is being represented as NOS but was built in 2003. The web take is great cart but the very fine coils could be melted extremely easily if your pre amp does anything weird. Last week I almost bought a ZYX Atmos but Mehran from Sora Sound. He would only extend the higher of his prices to me so in the end I passed( I am not a higher end client with him)

I really liked the Dynas I had but I may be romancing the memory of the 20-xh I had and the 17d3 was great but a pita to set up on my previous table. Any suggestions from the peanut gallery?

Have you heard either of these carts

Audio-Technica AT33PTG Prestige MC Stereo Cartridge

Yamamoto Sound YC-03S MC type cartridge

I haven't heard them, but were recommended by the person that sold me the ZYX Yatra.

[HeadphoneAddict]

I've searched but little has been said about it since 2 yr ago. What do you guys think of the TTVJ Millett Hybrid Phono Preamp?

[jp11801]

While I love Todd I'm not a huge fan of that phono pre amp. At $829 I scour A-gon for a good used pre I've always wanted one of these Eastern Electric Mini Max Phono For Sale | AudiogoN

[HeadphoneAddict]

While I love Todd I'm not a huge fan of that phono pre amp. At $829 I scour A-gon for a good used pre I've always wanted one of these Eastern Electric Mini Max Phono For Sale | AudiogoN

But if I can find a good used TTVJ for closer to $500 is it a better value? Or does something about the sound hold it back at even that price?

I really liked the Nighthawk that I had for 3 weeks, but I had nothing to compare it to except a cheap GEMsound preamp that doesn't have enough gain for my BENZ ACE RED L moving coil cart. I had to return the Nighthawk because I needed expensive dental work right after I got it, but I hope to be ready to buy another preamp in a couple of months. If I don't upgrade my preamp I'll have to reinstall my old MM cart, or continue to not use my TT (not really something I've been missing).

I've considered the Hagerman Bugle, but it only supports MM carts, not MC. Or I could also just get another Nighthawk which I already know sounds very detailed, rich and spacious with my BENZ cart. The only thing I didn't like about it was having to physically unplug the charger cord to use it, instead of flipping a switch to have the charger disconnect. Does anyone think the Bugle would have enough gain for a 0.4 mv MC cart? The BENZ sounded best with 100, 500, or 1000 ohm, but it wasn't too bad at 47 kohm and still beat the Orofon Blue M2 I used previously.

[deepak]

I would try and find a used Pass Pearl, with the Pearl 2 coming out there might be more available on the market. I was quite surprised how much quieter and detailed it is over my Bottlehead. I run a .37 MV cart with the Pearl with no step up, but my headphone amp has a pant load of gain.

Though it's not as kind to poor pressings, not really an issue for me since I buy mostly audiophile presses or clean vintage. YMMV I'm pretty much sold on solid state for low level amplification.

Edited May 22, 2010 by deepak

[jp11801]

well I just set up the Origin Live Deck the Stretch sold me and all I can say is holy thunderous bass batman. Needs some fine tuning that will likely take a month while waiting for a mint protractor. The soundstage is not as defined as I recall the DD decks had but the tone, detail and attack is a nice step up. Right now I do not have the anti skate set up and I cant hear any ill effect from it but I'll give that a go tomorrow.

[Hopstretch]

Boom boom!

PM me your address JP and I'll mail you a couple of Rega/OL templates I have and forgot to throw in the box, sorry. Should hold you until you get the mint protractor.

[deepak]

New phono stage from John Curl...

Orion

[Hopstretch]

That looks very, very, very, very, very expensive.

[mulveling]

Well, I'll be buying an Ortofon Jubilee in addition to the Sonic Frontiers Phono 1

I've considered the Hagerman Bugle, but it only supports MM carts, not MC. Or I could also just get another Nighthawk which I already know sounds very detailed, rich and spacious with my BENZ cart. The only thing I didn't like about it was having to physically unplug the charger cord to use it, instead of flipping a switch to have the charger disconnect. Does anyone think the Bugle would have enough gain for a 0.4 mv MC cart? The BENZ sounded best with 100, 500, or 1000 ohm, but it wasn't too bad at 47 kohm and still beat the Orofon Blue M2 I used previously.

The Glider L2 I had (which is essentially the Ace L in a different casing) was fairly forgiving with loading, but I'd highly recommend against running it into 47K. I wish I'd tried lower than 1K before I sold it - it would still get a bit screechy (relative to smoother analog setups) up top. I don't know why Benz hard wires their PP-1 stage to 22K at a gain of 62dB - it's not a good match for low MC carts. I've heard others tell me the Glider's optimal load is ~ 120 ohms. That sounds about right - 120 to 240 ohms is in the range of 10x to 20x the coil impedance, which is generally where you want to be.

DB Systems still sells a loading kit ($50) that allows you to easily switch in 10, 20, 50, 100, or 200 ohm resistor plugs in parallel to your stage's load. That works well to give you those loading options into a fixed 22K or 47K load, for example. I recommend using radio shack's RCA splitters in place of the kit's cheapo y-cable adapters.

Gain-wise, pairing an MM stage with a 0.4mV cart is going to run a very high probability of not being workable. You'd need a high gain headphone amp with efficient headphones to have a shot, and it still might not be able to provide loud volumes. If you're looking at Hagerman, why not consider adding a Piccolo active step-up to your MM stage of choice?

[jp11801]

here is what the deck is sounding like, It is a very rough set up and I need to isolate the table with a wall mount as I have to tippy toe away from the deck to keep the cart from dancing across the LP.

Some a the better dynamics with out cart overload though

Description: OL sample

You can use the following link to retrieve your file:

Download OL Sample.aif from Sendspace.com - send big files the easy way

[luvdunhill]

here is what the deck is sounding like, It is a very rough set up and I need to isolate the table with a wall mount as I have to tippy toe away from the deck to keep the cart from dancing across the LP.

I might have a wall mount for sale if you're interested. It's a double shelf Apollo stand.

[jp11801]

sure I'm interested, is it glass or mdf shelvers?

[luvdunhill]

sure I'm interested, is it glass or mdf shelvers?

I have two MDF shelves that came with it, and a maple slab that I recently posted for sale and swt61 bought (and hasn't picked up yet). It's black powdercoat with black shelves. I stuck a Nott table and a MPX3 on it at some point, it can easily handle 125# or so...

[swt61]

swt61 bought (and hasn't picked up yet).

What, you tryin' to tell me that the luvdunhill house is not my Austin annex?

And just when I was going to ask you to hold onto an Audi R8 for an undetermined amount of time.