Beefy Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Simple cost/benefit. I don't believe that jitter reduces my enjoyment of music, or is even an audible problem in 99% of cases. For $30 I am building myself a Gamma1 USB-SPDIF converter that will give me just as much enjoyment as that $1200 sound card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morphsci Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 (edited) Jim, I think you'll find setting up any kind of accurate jitter measurement apparatus and methodology will be a lot harder than it sounds. Unless you have $30,000 lying around for an AP-2722. John Atkinson neatly summarized the state of play earlier this year in Stereophile here. And here's a bit from Charles Hansen about interpreting the numbers produced by the tests commonly in use. And then there's this, which I've read several times and only succeeded in consistently making my head hurt. AES: Specifying The Jitter Performance Of Audio Components. Godspeed! Oh, I realize it will not be trivial, which is why I am looking around for some independent entity with an AP SYS-2722. The best case scenario would allow multiple samples per unit and multiple individual units per model to assess both measurement variation as well as unit-to-unit variation. You know, kinda scientific-like. Oh, and by doing this I am making no statement as to whether I consider jitter to be audibly significant or not. Edited October 14, 2009 by Dusty Chalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tachikoma Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Why do people want to muck around with USB converters or USB DACs? Dedicated PC for audio > RME HDSPe AES (slaved to master clock generator) RME drivers are very good and work OK with WinXP, Vista, Windows 7, and Mac OS X. I don't have a PC (and have little use for one), and I can't afford an expensive master clock generator Besides if the DAC can't slave a transport to it (and thats the majority) the RME doesn't have a huge advantage over USB. IMO the best solution is to just take the PC out of the equation, and replace it with something like a Squeezebox Touch (plays directly from a HDD), or better yet a Naim DAC that eliminates the need for SPDIF altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarium Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Hrm I don't know... my experience has been that unless the USB is aysnc -> directly to the dac or bulk mode that spdif from a card is less noisy/jittery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n_maher Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 i think a double blind test to determine if is actually audible would be a good second step, though i don't know how one would go about introducing controlled amounts of jitter on demand. While not at all double blind I can tell you that I've heard DACs with both USB and Coax inputs and have definitely preferred the Coax input to the USB. Specifically this was noted when listening to the Headroom Balanced Amp/DAC. I think Tyll has admitted as much publicly as well. Now I won't say this is a jitter related finding but there was something different about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 i think a double blind test to determine if is actually audible would be a good second step, though i don't know how one would go about introducing controlled amounts of jitter on demand.link Read the paragraph starting at "A different kind of distortion". To synopsize -- it's not really adding controlled amounts of jitter, but a reference level of jitter, so that you can hear how much your source is introducing (for example, on the clean part of the track). I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torpedo Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 (edited) Jim, I think you'll find setting up any kind of accurate jitter measurement apparatus and methodology will be a lot harder than it sounds. Unless you have $30,000 lying around for an AP-2722. John Atkinson neatly summarized the state of play earlier this year in Stereophile here. And here's a bit from Charles Hansen about interpreting the numbers produced by the tests commonly in use. And then there's this, which I've read several times and only succeeded in consistently making my head hurt. AES: Specifying The Jitter Performance Of Audio Components. Godspeed! The AES link isn't working for me Edited October 14, 2009 by Dusty Chalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n_maher Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 The AES link isn't working for me http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/uploads/documents/en/Specifying%20Jitter%20Performance.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Try it now (the quoted one, I'll go fix the other one in a second). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torpedo Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Working now. Thanks mates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepak Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Why do people want to muck around with USB converters or USB DACs? Dedicated PC for audio > RME HDSPe AES (slaved to master clock generator) RME drivers are very good and work OK with WinXP, Vista, Windows 7, and Mac OS X. Yeah I pretty much feel the same way. It also gives me the freedom to build a music computer that has no moving parts and fans. Simple cost/benefit. I don't believe that jitter reduces my enjoyment of music, or is even an audible problem in 99% of cases. For $30 I am building myself a Gamma1 USB-SPDIF converter that will give me just as much enjoyment as that $1200 sound card. If you shop around and buy used you can get RME and Lynx sound cards in the $300-600 range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beefy Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Yeah I pretty much feel the same way. It also gives me the freedom to build a music computer that has no moving parts and fans. My laptop has all my music on it anyway. I see no need for a second computer. If you shop around and buy used you can get RME and Lynx sound cards in the $300-600 range. Still $270-570 more than I feel I need to spend, plus the actual computer. I do see the value in such a setup, but I just pick my battles elsewhere. I feel that I get far better value for money spending the difference on music, new DIY projects etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fing Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Maybe the EMU 1212m coax out isn't very good - though reports say it's not bad. But I definitely preferred USB to it on a MHDT Havana dac. Not as thick sounding and much more dynamic, detailed and tonally accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwood Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Was thinking of getting a M2tech Hiface, will be more convenient to be able to use it with every laptop and portable computer I have, rather than being stuck with a single desktop PC with my RME HDSP 9632. But If the RME is still better, so be it. We'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Currawong Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 After JayDee's long posts in the CryoParts sponsor forum, I understand his point of view, and feel he answered criticism well in a place that isn't really his market for what is probably the cheapest item he sells. I think it would require comment from Kevin Gilmore at least regarding anything technical he mentioned. Since I have been playing around a little with converters and having gotten some good results (I can now hear clearly the players' breathing on Chesky's The Body Acoustic with my HD-800s, something I thought I'd need an O2 rig for) I'm at the point that there are a number of directions I can go if I want to improve my rig. I was thinking it would be helpful to have some kind of reasonably definitive information available rather than just playing pot-luck with converters and other gear, especially that which is controversial. Jim, I think you'll find setting up any kind of accurate jitter measurement apparatus and methodology will be a lot harder than it sounds. Unless you have $30,000 lying around for an AP-2722. John Atkinson neatly summarized the state of play earlier this year in Stereophile here. And here's a bit from Charles Hansen about interpreting the numbers produced by the tests commonly in use. And then there's this, which I've read several times and only succeeded in consistently making my head hurt. AES: Specifying The Jitter Performance Of Audio Components. Godspeed! I figured this might be the kind of problem that one might run into, that is, being able to make valid measurements. However, even if one just RMAAs gear to show the tonal "tricks" dialled in to make listening enjoyable, then people might learn something, if measuring jitter is too hard, for example. Why do people want to muck around with USB converters or USB DACs? Dedicated PC for audio > RME HDSPe AES (slaved to master clock generator) RME drivers are very good and work OK with WinXP, Vista, Windows 7, and Mac OS X. I was reading various complaints about the RME Mac drivers recently. I have in mind to have a dedicated Mac Mini with SS HD as a music source, and I'd love to have a Firewire interface instead of optical or USB, but I don't know if I'd just be spending a lot of money for very little gain, though my hi-fi nut friend in Cali reckons that AIFF only is the way to go and that all other processing by a computer degrades the SQ etc etc pushing me towards buying a dedicated power conditioner for just my Mac. While not at all double blind I can tell you that I've heard DACs with both USB and Coax inputs and have definitely preferred the Coax input to the USB. Specifically this was noted when listening to the Headroom Balanced Amp/DAC. I think Tyll has admitted as much publicly as well. Now I won't say this is a jitter related finding but there was something different about them. Ditto. Coax was distinctly less harsh on the DACs where I'd compared. that's definitely an interesting finding. it would be nice to learn if it's actually jitter related, or if, say, the USB input is just fucking something up somehow. By rights, my DAC shouldn't be affected by the source very much at all, yet improves with a better transport, and the same can be said for other DACs that supposedly don't have issue with jitter. Some more Dan Lavry and others discussing possibilities and findings would be interesting IMO, though leading to something practical rather than the pseudo-knowledge that goes around would be most helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screaming oranges Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Currawong, what converter are you currently using and what is your rig composed of? Btw everyone, since I lost out on the Ayre QB-9 auction on the 'gon, I decided to give this controversial Diverter a try. Yep. I bought one and took one for the team. As I have said before, I am not good (and dislike) reviewing units. As always, if anyone is interested in giving it a listen, go to Mike's meet (hopefully I'll have it by then). Since I have no async DAC, I decided to buy this "supposedly" good converter for the AA Prima DAC. I know many of you use DAC's to connect other transports that are not PC, but to me, that's all I use them for: pc audio. I'd also gladly loan this out to one of you (but only ONE of you, not starting a loaner program of any sort this time around). So if anyone here is up to the task of reviewing this piece of hardware, let me know and we can make arrangements for delivery post-Mike meet. I'd prefer someone who is familiar with DACs and PC rigs, of course. If this is not you, then you don't qualify. This is not intended to be a chance-for-you-to-listen-to-it type of thing, this is intended solely for deep analysis and review. If you aren't up for the task, well, this isn't for you. Only pc-intensive, DAC-craving, converter-experienced people need apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K3cT Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 I applaud you for your effort, screaming oranges. For science indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screaming oranges Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 I was a bit drunk when I bought that. We'll see what happens now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screaming oranges Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 the Prima resamples its digital inputs, i don't think the converter is going to get you anything. Well, at the least, I'll put up a $1k product vs sub$100 musiland and over$150 Trends. If I hear no difference, believe me, I hate reviews, but I will post my findings here and over there. FOR SCIENCE! I will also hate myself for getting it probably and return it within the 30-day period if I am not happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screaming oranges Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Oh, and there is also the BelCanto Dac3 to play with, though I am not placing high hopes either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manaox2 Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Well, at the least, I'll put up a $1k product vs sub$100 musiland and over$150 Trends. If I hear no difference, believe me, I hate reviews, but I will post my findings here and over there. FOR SCIENCE! I will also hate myself for getting it probably and return it within the 30-day period if I am not happy. Thanks SO for doing this. I wouldn't trust anyone else in that review thread on head-fi to do this, including myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger945 Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 I was reading various complaints about the RME Mac drivers recently. I have in mind to have a dedicated Mac Mini with SS HD as a music source, and I'd love to have a Firewire interface instead of optical or USB, but I don't know if I'd just be spending a lot of money for very little gain, though my hi-fi nut friend in Cali reckons that AIFF only is the way to go and that all other processing by a computer degrades the SQ etc etc pushing me towards buying a dedicated power conditioner for just my Mac. Found this on A'gon while researching the BAD Alpha: I was so impressed that I spoke with michael Ritter yesterday for more info. After a long conversation, here are a couple of points he made that I came away with: 1) jitter from a hard drive digital source is typically much less than a transport. 2) he prefers WAV files to flax as the processor has less overhead to process and less noise, therefore. ====================================================================================== Btw everyone, since I lost out on the Ayre QB-9 auction on the 'gon, I decided to give this controversial Diverter a try. Yep. I bought one and took one for the team. What color did you choose? I'de pass a stone to see what's inside(if you can even get it open without voiding the warrantee and it's not covered in epoxy). Looks like they charge 20% restocking fee. ouch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvdunhill Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 I'de pass a stone to see what's inside(if you can even get it open without there are pics 'round these parts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopstretch Posted October 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 I think he's talking about the Diverter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morphsci Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 I have a hard time believing that FLAC decoding causes significant processor overhead on a dedicated music server unless you are using this as your server. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.