Anyone know anything about reel to reel?

[Duggeh]

Because through a series of strange machinations a Revox B-77 and several tapes have found their way here free gratis.

I'm reading google things and it came with the manual and stuff. Is this a format worth getting into?

[VPI]

I use a Reel To Reel but I mostly just use it for the Tape Project tapes and to record vinyl onto giant mix tapes.

That Revox is quite nice and definitely worth trying out. With tapes like the Tape Project tapes you will get unmatched sound quality. Most commercial tapes, with the exception of the Barclay Crocker stuff, will sound pretty weak.

[guzziguy]

Calling Ironbutt. Come in Steve.

I think that r2r's can make the best sounding sources. Steve's is wonderful and Doc Bottlehead's $15k setup at the recent NorCal meet was absolutely killer. The problems with them are:

1. They are awful fiddly.

2. Good recordings are really expensive. Here is the tapeproject run by Doc Bottlehead. Tapes are $300 each.

3. Skipping around on them (seeking) is a slow pain in the butt. They work best when you set up the tape and then let it play.

Please note that I know very little about modern r2r playing. Steve and others can give you more educated information.

[kevin gilmore]

If you completely recondition it, including belt and brake shoes its a very nice

although quirky machine. Servo drives the capstain. First 30 seconds it usually

wow's and flutters like crazy. Also sticktion in the tapes themselves will throw

off the servo. Wonderful machine. Some even have the dolby-b option.

Don't even bother trying to get recorded tapes, 99% are trash. Use for

live 2 channel recording.

B700 is a much better machine.

[Duggeh]

I use a Reel To Reel but I mostly just use it for the Tape Project tapes and to record vinyl onto giant mix tapes.

That Revox is quite nice and definitely worth trying out. With tapes like the Tape Project tapes you will get unmatched sound quality. Most commercial tapes, with the exception of the Barclay Crocker stuff, will sound pretty weak.

Thanks. It's good to have someone here give a thumbs up to the machine. It certainly looks in pristine physical condition, there isn't even a tiny hazy scratch on the dust cover and the documentation indicates that it's all serviced and up to spec.

I've heard about the tape project tapes. I think I first read the name in the Canjam impressions thread, certainly it was a meet with a RTR and some AD2000s connected to it. Those prices are seriously heavy duty stuff though. Additionally, none of them are albums I've heard before. Could you possibly give a wee rundown of the albums you have and which ones you really like and why? If I've got the machine for nothing it would be apt to get at least one nice tape for it (I haven't yet looked at the tapes that came with it).

Is there a backstock of RTR tapes like there is for LPs? Am I likely to find, say, Donald Fagens Nightfly on RTR tape? I won't kid myself that there could possibly be anything released after, say, 1985 thats on RTR.

Calling Ironbutt. Come in Steve.

I think that r2r's can make the best sounding sources. Steve's is wonderful and Doc Bottlehead's $15k setup at the recent NorCal meet was absolutely killer. The problems with them are:

1. They are awful fiddly.

2. Good recordings are really expensive. Here is the tapeproject run by Doc Bottlehead. Tapes are $300 each.

3. Skipping around on them (seeking) is a slow pain in the butt. They work best when you set up the tape and then let it play.

Please note that I know very little about modern r2r playing. Steve and others can give you more educated information.

Fiddly indeed. I'm finding out whats involved in putting in tapes just to play them. And I can remember when I got my turntable and being just as thrown, except already better read on the subject.

2 track, 4 track, mono and stereo, record, play, erase, IPS speeds, reel sizes. Madness.

Yeah, I went onto ebay and had a look at what tapes there were. There were very few and they didn't look up to all that.

Seeking is no problem, like with my turntable I wouldn't be doing anything other than listening through full albums with this sort of rig and I lived with cassettes and VHS for long enough to be able to cope with fast forward and rewind

[Currawong]

Tapes aren't too bad to set up. I regret my father's R2R broke down, the brand of which I've forgotten. I could thread it when I was a 10yo, it's just a step backwards from a cassette.

I'm not sure what the go is with blank tapes themselves. When I was a child, there were a couple of different types I do recall, rather like there were with recordable cassettes. If I was in your shoes and had a friend with a high-end turntable rig and large collection, I know what I'd be doing.

You may find it handy to hunt for some smaller reels and a splicing/joining kit if you get into it in any big way.

[Dusty Chalk]

I miss my reel-to-reel.

[Spiug31]

on the plus side it's less likely to eat the tapes than a cassette recorder.

I played with one my dad had (I think he might have built his), the tapes were of the pop chart rundown he recorded from the radio. johnny cash singing ring of fire was on one/some so probably 1963 ish. I found them quite a good toy

[Duggeh]

Most of the tapes in the box are untitled. No contents list of any kind. There are 15 of them. All 10 inch, all either 15ips or 7&1/2ips that I can discern from context.

I listened to 2 today. A 7&1/2ips compilation of tracks from John Williams, Mike Oldfield (see why I put it on) and Neil Diamond songs. TBH, it sounded like a recording of some LPs.

The other tape was, must be, has to be, a first generation recording of some classical music played psudo-jazz style by a wee band. It was so absolutely fabulous. Lovely. Delicious. To give you an idea of how nice it was, I listened to it through a Bose Acoustimass speaker rig because I've lost the cables for the Quads and it still blew me away. The tapes remaining that have any hint to content are Beethovens 3rd, 4th and 7th and 2 tapes just marked "Bach".

Looking forward to the many hours of finding out what is on all the tapes.

In the bad news, the counter on the machine seems to be broken. And I get the feeling that'll be an awkward amount of effort to undertake a simple repair. But that it doesn't work makes track delineation impossible.

Ay and there's the rub.

[Grahame]

Back in the day, I was able to spool up my dad's Reel to Reel without out too much effort.

Together with a friend we discovered the fun you could have with a microphone and a set of headphones, given that the record head came before the play head

(quality heads, optimized for their dedicated tasks) - lookup tape echo loops, and feedback.

Manually advancing the tape to get vari-speed, or recording at one speed and playing back at another to get pitch-shifting.

Dragging on the reels, when two were playing back to get Flanging!

Reversing the tape to get backwards playback. (Think of all those backwards piano sounds with a slowly rising attack)

The simple joy of pausing and restarting the recording, when using this

as a source, enabled you to get Troy Tempest saying the craziest things (thing of making an analogue, manual, near real time, mashup) . Ah Happy Days.

And the discovery that you could get "modern" tape formulations (think CrO2, or Metal, like cassette tapes compared to the original Ferric (rust coloured tapes, that shed on the tapes heads like no ones business)) with better S/N - at 7.5 or 15 ips, no hiss, who needed Dolby!

Back to your problem with the counter? Does resetting it back to 0000 help

(i.e. is it slipping in its current position, is it stuck, or just disconnected) . Essentially it's a mileometer (odometer) for the tape distance, driven by reduction gearing off the tape capstan (roller).

If that doesn't work, you could get really old school, get some mark-able tape you can write on (think masking tape), put it on one (or several) of the radial arms of the tape spools, and mark the radius of the tape on the spool when the track begins. Annotate the Mark, and then key the marking on the spool to a track list on the case of the spool. Think of it as a .cue file for the tape.

Then just advance/rewind until the radius of the tape matches the marking and you should be close to the track start/end! (7.5 + 15ips makes this easier , as the tracks are "fatter")

Have fun and enjoy! Its all good character building stuff

[Voltron]

I was organizing my records and came across this one on Saturday:

I thought you would be proud of me for owning it, Duggeh. Not really on topic, but it is analog, at least.

[Duggeh]

QE2 is one of two (that aren't bad or at least meh) albums in the Oldfield discography that just seems to get "forgotten". Along with The Killing Fields Soundtrack (which is so so good It's astonishing he never broke through into doing more film soundtracks). Opening track and Mirage are the winners on it for me. You get 415 DuggehPride points. You get +100 more if you own Airborn (the US version of Platinum).

The counter simply doesn't turn over and resetting it (it's on 0000) does nothing. I really would rather use it as a reference than other more crude mechanical means. I may open up the machine an see if there is something obviously loose.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Duggeh

[Dusty Chalk]

QE2 is awesome. I totally dig the Blue Man Group -like drumming on tracks like Celt and Conflict, as well as the opening track Taurus I, Mirage, and the title track. In fact, I even recommended Blue Man Group on an Oldfield emailing list as "...if you like QE2, you should try...".

And I agree with you about Killing Fields as well, of course. I probably listen to that more than any other album of his (!).

[Spiug31]

In the bad news, the counter on the machine seems to be broken. And I get the feeling that'll be an awkward amount of effort to undertake a simple repair. But that it doesn't work makes track delineation impossible.

not impossible just requires some attention, a stop watch / timer, paper and a pencil

you need only do it once per tape and include the list in the reel case when you put it away

[Duggeh]

Painstaking, but appealing in a really anal retentive way sir! That is of course on the premise that each digit on the RTR counter represents one second (which I had assumed to be the case).

That classi-jazz tape is gonna go down a storm at the UK meet, if it happens.

[Dusty Chalk]

That is of course on the premise that each digit on the RTR counter represents one second (which I had assumed to be the case).

I'm pretty sure that's not the case. I vaguely remember it being related to revolutions, not inches (I.E. the integral of angular momentum, not linear momentum). It might depend on the model, but of the ones I've worked with (which, admittedly, was a long time ago), if memory serves, etc.

[Currawong]

Grahame, you brought back a flood of memories with your post.

Duggeh, the counter will likely be all plastic parts and may have worn out it's gears or such.

[Currawong]

Grahame, you brought back a flood of memories with your post.

Duggeh, the counter will likely be all plastic parts and may have worn out it's gears or such.

[Spiug31]

Painstaking, but appealing in a really anal retentive way sir! That is of course on the premise that each digit on the RTR counter represents one second (which I had assumed to be the case).

If the counter isn't working ignore it, generate a track listing to navigate and/or use your eyes to gauge the amount of tape on a reel, advance and reverse the tape until you get where you want. With a little practice I found I could locate points on a reel quite quickly but it is a lot easier to simply play through the reel from beginning to end. I think Dusty is right about the counter being linked to revolutions but whether these are revolutions of capstan (which is turned by the tape) or revolutions of a reel, I think varies with machine. The one I used, I think measured reel rotation.

Reel rotation is less accurate (to playing time) as the length of tape lifted with each revolution of a reel varies with circumference of the tape on a reel.

anal retentive = studiously observant

[Duggeh]

I think I'm getting the hang of time estimation based on how much reel has passed. Although it'll never be spot on of course.

Been through 11 of the tapes so far.

One reel is Beethovens 4th Symphony

One is the 3rd and 8th Beethoven symphonies but they both don't quite fit on and the second symphony ends abruptly.

One reel contains assorted pieces featuring predominantly harpsichord and flute and from the sound of which I'd guess as being Bach.

2 Reels contain 7&1/2 ips recordings of "The Organist Entertains" from BBC Radio 2 which will be the first things to get taped over as it's absolutely awful.

One reel is a 15ips recording of Jean-Michel Jarres Rendezvous and from how quiet it is I'm guessing its a recording of a CD but I could be wrong.

One reel is a Peter Cincotti esque selection of very groovy and really rather good funky jazzy songs.

One reel contains classical music played in a sort of jazzy style and is very good indeed, Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor on piano with drum accompaniment was fun.

Three other reels are are 15ips classical music, some of which I can't specifically or sometimes even broadly identify but also most of which is nice enough to listen to.

The 12th reel which I have playing just now is an FM radio recording of Ludovico Einaudi live in concert but suffers a little too much for greatly enjoyable listening because of persistent crackling. It may be the tape though.

Some of the tapes need the DBX Type II equalisation on playback (Jarre) and some don't (Funky Jazz tape). Fortuitously such a device was included with the tape machine.

Five more reels after this one. One of which has a different spindle hole and can't be played (I think).

All listening so far done with the O2.

[Grahame]

I think I'm getting the hang of time estimation based on how much reel has passed. Although it'll never be spot on of course.

Have you considered this?

http://www.maa.org/pubs/calc_articles/ma062.pdf

[guzziguy]

<snip>

2 Reels contain 7&1/2 ips recordings of "The Organist Entertains" from BBC Radio 2 which will be the first things to get taped over as it's absolutely awful.

<snip>

"We are not entertained!"

[audiosceptic]

I also have a Revox B77 R2R that I picked up via ebay 5 years ago. I had come across around 30 unopened classical r2r tapes at a half-priced book store including some academy of st. martin in the fields recordings that I wanted to play. I sent the Revox to JM Technical Arts in Nashville and they cleaned it up to the point where it sounds very good. Nice way to listen to music on a lazy Sunday.

[HeadphoneAddict]

In the bad news, the counter on the machine seems to be broken. And I get the feeling that'll be an awkward amount of effort to undertake a simple repair. But that it doesn't work makes track delineation impossible.

Ay and there's the rub.

You can listen to the reel with a stopwatch or timer, and stop it every 5 minutes to mark the tape level/thickness on the reel with a marker pen. Then when you go back to listen again another time you can fast forward to approximate locations in time on the reel.

I miss my old Akai R2R and Harmon Kardon turntable. I grew up with reel to reel and LP's and didn't even give up my turntable until 1991 when I moved to colorado, 7 years after my first CD player.

[EDIT] - well I see some clever people have beat me to suggestions about keeping track of the time. I hope you can still fix it though.

[wualta]

Duggeh, would you be so kind as to take a nice macro photo of the counter? If it's just an odometer with a square button next to it and not in any way electronical, it's a mechanical device that simply counts revolutions of the feed spindle. Better than nothing but still not very precise. I recall the A77 as old enough to precede the days of what we excitedly called Real Time Counters with their cool VF and LED displays.

Which means that it's probably a cheap little stringy rubber belt that's perished. Dig around inside, find it, measure it, and find some online places that specialize in belts and I'll bet you'll be counting reel revolutions inside a fortnight. There were some expensive add-on mechanical real-time counters made by Lyra and others BITD, but they're beyond the pale for such as we.

Speaking of BITD, we used to record very low-frequency (~20 Hz) tones between tracks as we produced a tape. 3 bleeps meant the third selection, and so on. The idea was that the playback operator would fast-forward with the machine in "cue" (ie, with the tape pushed almost but not quite against the playback head) and listen for and count the beeps, now at a midrange frequency. The same idea was later adopted by VCR and cassette mfrs to bookmark tracks for their auto-search features. Ah, the good old backinthe days.

Don't play nothin' important on that machine until you get yourself a good head demagnetiser and learn yourself how to use it properly.