Room development. Advice from you fine chaps?

[Duggeh]

Waffling context begins...

My parents house has two front rooms, one of which has been since year dot the living room, and has the television and sofas and is generally where people sit and veg out or chat or read the paper or whatever. The other front room has been known since I was a little kiddie as "the music room". It wasn't called this because mum played cello in there, or because there's a piano, but because it is where my dad installed his hi-fi in the mid/late 80s.

(Mission DAD7000, Quad 34/405-2, Monitor Audio speakers)

The DAD7000 is long dead (could only be a good thing ,some would say, replaced since then with an Arcam Alpha 7) as are the speakers. For perhaps 8 years the room has had Bose Acoustimass 5 series III speakers in their place, and indeed, that probably coincides with the time when the room was no longer used for anything whatsoever except for the (very occasional) entertainment of guests, pre-dinner, and of couse, the 4 weeks or so a year when the Christmas Tree goes into the room.

At the minute the rig is: Turntable / Arcam or Laptop into DAS-R1 -> NAD C352 or Quad 34/405-2-> Quad 21L or Bose Acoustimass. (This will get consolidated down)

Along with a lot of other shuffling that has been going on in the house over the last 6 weeks of so (rooms being repainted, new bookshelves, that kind of crap) dad has now, after deliberation, decided that he wants the room to stop being as he put it "a dead room" or as I put it "a garage" (large items and multiple items of crap were left in there, gathering dust, just to get them out of the way, and my brother has his drum kit in there). He wants it converted over to (much to my joy, I have to say) a proper hi-fi room.

It's a large room with a quite high ceiling (10 feet high at least, I dont know the length and width atm), and the ancient and crappy couches in it will be getting scrapped. And he has in effect, given me the role of gaffer for converting it over to something lovely for the primary purpose of housing a speaker rig.

He is heavily interested with the idea of an electrostatic speaker setup. I have given him the layman rundown on the Quad 57 and 63 (and on the Precide Kithara, and on the the Nelson Pass J-Low & El-Pipeo combo [Klienhorns would be a step too far ]). Tragically for the posting of JPEGs on Head-Case, he isn't inclined towards the Nelson Pass option.

I'm going to be updating his 34/405-2 to modern spec (thanks, in largest part to NET-Audio) because he clearly wants to keep them, but be rid of the issues that come from them being 20 years old, and brought up to modern spec.

What he doesn't know, and indeed, what I, for all of the JPEG lusting and all of the reading and understading that one can come to from such reading that one can have, is which path to go down for speakers. Frankly, I think given the sticking with the 405-2 (405-3) and his enjoyment of a bass in his sound (can you guess why he never much liked the Bose) that the ESL-63 is the better bet.

Stacked -57s also seem a viable option, and I could bend him to the Kithara I'm sure. But as I say, I've heard none of the three, nor has he. And irrespective of how much reading one migh tdo over how much time, when it comes to this sort of call, when given to you in real life, it starts to mean fuck all. So [coming to the point at last after all of that contextual bullshit storytelling] what I seek is the wisdom of the input of you fine chaps.

Dad has (about)

[Grahame]

Short answer: You lucky, lucky bastard.

Longer answer: Make your old man happy. (He is probably proud of you already I'd guess).

The Net Audio 405 Mk3 Upgrade looks pretty good value for the price. (may be you could acquire another donor 405 and go down the dual monobloc route ) probably cheaper than a new 909 ..

If he wants some Quad ESL's he's unlikely to be unhappy with either the 57 or the 63. Depends what you can source I'd guess. Other folks have suggested that if you don't like one you could swap / sell on the other without too much of a financial hit if you buy wisely.

The main win though is having a clean slate/blank canvas for the room. Given 10 ft ceilings, and a sizeable room you should be able to come close to ideal speaker and listening position placement.

Have fun, and let us know how you get on.

[Dusty Chalk]

Why not a modern Quad, like the ESL-988?

[Duggeh]

I'd thought about that, but it seems (and again, I am faced with the limitation of what I have to read, rather than to listen to) that the 988, effectively is the -63. Just with shinier paintwork. Additionally, the room, I suspect, will actually be of a sufficiently large volume that a single pair of -63/989/2805 might have real difficulties in pushing air like a cone of the same price level would. Whereas x2 stack of -57 would push more air (helping to overcome their x1 limitations) but without the inherant physical design benefits of the concentric delay line.

Additionally. It is cheaper to buy a pair of ESL-63 (even in bad nick) and have them brought up to proper condition, than it is to buy a pair of the 988 or the 2805.

You see the dialemma.

Reliability and such related factors was in large part behind my consideration of the cousin speakers in the Precide range. But if a Quad is properly refurished and then appripriately driven, it should, all things being equal, do fine for just as long.

[Torpedo]

It all depends on the "bass needs" your dad may have. If he's going to listen mostly to chamber music, vocals and such, then the ESL63 are a great option. Otherwise, newer Quads would deliver more bass which makes them more suitable for other music styles.

You may think that a subwoofer may solve the bass issue with the ESL63, but IME, the midrange of the ESL63 is so special, clean, natural, etc that matching a sub to that sound and getting a good blend, is a really tough task. No <1000 euros sub would qualify.

The 988 doing some rework on the frame to make it stiffer are very good speakers. The even newer series are crap. They're made in China and the guys mounting them not even know how to put the right component into the right place , so forget about soldering in a proper manner. Once reworked sound really good, but as with all planars, you need a lot of room (6ft or more) behind them to the front wall.

Another great option IMO are the Apogee Duetta, which can be found used from time to time. Their only problem is they need beefy amps, but I'm quite sure you may find in the UK a used Audio Synthesis Desire Decade for well under 1000 GBP, which drives them gorgeously. A friend of mine had the Duettas and I loaned him my AS. It was an excellent system, but he had to sell the Duettas for his using a pacemaker. The huge magnetic field from the Duettas interfered his device, which wasn't a great idea

[swt61]

While they're not true electrostats I'm going to have to agree with the Apogee recomendation, and in this country a good used pair is easy to find. And on that same line my next recommendation would be a used pair of larger Maggies.

Through the last few decades I've heard Quad, Martin Logan, Sound Lab, Iminent Technology, Magnepan & Apogee. The Apogee and the Magnepans always just sounded right to me. It seems you're geared toward the Quads Douglas, but you really owe it to yourself to try and listen to the other offerings before making such a big decision.

If buying used through A-gon or whatever site you may just be able to audition the speakers beforehand.

Anyway that's my two cents worth.

[aerius]

Quads in a larger room with a high ceiling is asking for trouble, unless you never plan to listen any louder than 60-70dB or so, and the music doesn't have much bass. The Living Voice Avatar, though it's a dynamic speaker shares many of the same sound qualities with the Quad 57 including the super clear midrange and freedom from colourations in the sound. It also plays louder, but it's still limited in loudness & dynamics since there's only so much a couple 5.5" drivers can do. You might be able to get away with it in your room but I wouldn't bet on it.

I'd agree with the above posters on the recommendation of Apogees, I haven't heard the Duettas yet (my experience is with the Diva, Scintilla, and Centaur) but if they're anything like the ones I've heard they should be great. The two issues I can think of is that a)they're rather old and not every one is going to be in good condition, and b)they're pretty demanding on amps, especially the Scintilla.

[deepak]

The huge magnetic field from the Duettas interfered his device, which wasn't a great idea

That's unfortunate for your friend, but I'm strangely amused that medicine has prevented someone from being able to enjoy their hifi

[Torpedo]

Hehehehe, no worries, he can use Quads -2805 IIRC-, which aren't the same but get close and are more amp friendly, and some other dynamic speakers.

The problem isn't the pacemaker as such, it's more for the built-in defibrillator which kicks in when he was too close to the ribbons magnets. Close as in holding the speakers to position them in the room. An awful experience being defibrillated when there's no need of it. He needed that to happen twice before deciding to sell them. That good they sound

[Duggeh]

Theres a Soundlab Millenium M3, 5 years old (been in storage for 3) going for less than the three grand, and it's only 15 miles or so away. (No tedious journey to England unlike most Quads...)

Anyone have personal experience of a Soundlab? They've always seemed to have moved actively further in terms of design than Quads since the -63.

- Rang up the shop. Going to go listen to them soon. That is if they don't sell before then of course. -

Edited July 16, 2009 by Duggeh

[Torpedo]

Cool, never listened any Soundlabs. Look very interesting. Let us know the outcome

[spritzer]

You need massive amps for those S-L's since the M3's are hardest units to drive. I heard older A-1's and they are sublime to say the least...

[Dusty Chalk]

An awful experience being defibrillated when there's no need of it. He needed that to happen twice before deciding to sell them. That good they sound

I just want to say that I'm so glad that this story came up randomly. I'm going to be smiling all day. And I'm only allowed to find it funny because (a) you do, ( it's in hindsight and we know he survived.

[Torpedo]

I just want to say that I'm so glad that this story came up randomly. I'm going to be smiling all day. And I'm only allowed to find it funny because (a) you do, ( it's in hindsight and we know he survived.

Hahaha, then wait until I tell you the beginning of the story

This friend has one of the finest pairs of ears I've met in this hobby, not just for the hobby alone, but also for his professional practice. He suffered a heart attack about ten years ago, which left about 60% of his myocardial muscle in use, and a severe arrhythmia which spontaneously went into ventricular fibrillation. That's why he was implanted the pacemaker with the defibrillator.

At that time he already had a pair of Duettas and they produced on his pm the same effect, though at larger distance, so he sold them. Years passed and he needed a new device for the old one being dated and also running out of batteries. So as soon as he had the new pm working, he decided he should try again the Duettas so perhaps this time he could enjoy them. Unfortunately the new device is still too sensitive to strong magnetic fields.

It's a true story of impossible love

[Dusty Chalk]

You mean, like a Faraday cage? Wouldn't chainmail work for that? Plus, make him strong like horse.

[Torpedo]

Funnily enough he tried as many things as his imagination and availability allowed, but with little success. At least not as much as needed as to live safely with the Duettas

[swt61]

I have heard Soundlabs in an audio store environment, and they were quite lovely. The reason I didn't recommend them is because they're usually pretty pricey, and they're damn hard to drive, as has been mentioned. If you can supply a grunty amp however I think you'd be very happy with them.

Let us know what you think of them.

[bjarnetv]

Quads in a larger room with a high ceiling is asking for trouble, unless you never plan to listen any louder than 60-70dB or so, and the music doesn't have much bass.

i wouldn't worry too much about the ceiling height with the esl-63.

the ceiling height in my livingroom is about 10feet, and the quads play louder then would ever need.

the most important thing, placement wise, is keeping them at least 1 foot from the back wall with a slight toe in.

they sound more meaty and bassy when placed on the floor, but i prefer the clarity and increased soundstage you get from placing them on stands.

i also found them to have quite good bass down to about 40hz. more than enough for youthfull techno music, like justice, r

[TheSloth]

The even newer series are crap. They're made in China and the guys mounting them not even know how to put the right component into the right place , so forget about soldering in a proper manner.

This I really don't follow you on. Only the very first few 988/989's were made in Huntingdon. The rest were made in China - all the original production machinery was moved there to facilitate this very shortly after they were introduced.

I am not aware of any build quality issue with the Chinese made models, relative to their English counterparts. I owned a pair of Chinese made 988's.

As for the current models, what is your beef with the quality? The design makes them far more rigid than their predecessors, unless you load them into a concrete frame of course. And the components in the transformer section and FR network on the input are improved over the previous generation, which in themselves were an improvement on the 63's.

And to testify about the 988's relative to the 63's, they are a definite improvement. Firstly and most simply, the base actually supports the speakers so they don't wobble around. I can't imagine using 63's without needing to modify the base in some way to get proper stability. The slight backward tilt seems like nothing but it does actually make a difference as ideally one wants to listen as close to on axis relative to the concentric rings as possible. Again, you could accomplish this with 63's but it's much more fiddly to get it stable. And the grills on the 988's make more sense than the 63's (unless you get the 63 Pro or US edition) that had those silly downward firing slats.

For price, I bought my 988's for

[TheSloth]

ps: why can't I edit my posts? Clicking the edit button in Safari 4.0.2 just gives me an indefinite spinning thing.

[grawk]

There's a 5 minute edit window. Has been in place for a very long time.

[Torpedo]

Grawk, I was referring to the 2805 which from their introduction, were made in China. Maybe the late production 988 kept the build standards set in UK.

My friend who sold the Apogees, ordered a pair of 2805. They sounded OK for a couple of days, then one speaker died. He talked to the distributor, and sent another pair right away, so that the first pair was still at my friend's. The second pair arrived and this one from the very beginning, didn't sound right in one channel. He talked to the distributor, and both agreed to let my friend open both pairs and see what was going on.

He found that the first pair died because of a bad soldering. The second pair didn't sound right because a resistor was of the wrong value. Looks like they not even listened to that pair when just built.

He was able to see the very poor soldering and internal wiring quality. He managed to rebuild a working pair using parts of both and redoing all the solderings and wiring.

This was about two years ago, perhaps a bit more, a few months after the 2805 was released. Maybe things have changed and after this (and I bet others) fail they've improved their building quality and control.

Another friend had the 988, not sure if they came from UK or China, but those sounded great and had no issues. The only "problem" with those is the frame not being stiff enough to keep the panel steady, so at high SPLs they tend to comb and make sound a bit undefined and diffuse. This is improved on the newer series using a more rigid frame.

I hope this puts in clear the basis for my previous comments about the newer Quads

[grawk]

I don't care what you were referring to, I think you were replying to sloth, however

[Torpedo]

I don't care what you were referring to, I think you were replying to sloth, however

LOL, you're right, sorry, looks like I need new glasses

[TheSloth]

There's a 5 minute edit window. Has been in place for a very long time.

I know that but within that time window, clicking the edit button just gives me a spinning thing and nothing else happens.