Linear tracking tone arms experience

[shaizada]

Hey Guys,

Anyone have any thoughts to share on Linear Tracking tone arms such as this Clearaudio Master TQ-I:

I'm thinking of going in for a vinyl setup and one of those setups would have this tone arm.

From an engineering stand point, it seems to me that a cartridge would find it easier to track in a linear tone arm as opposed to "traveling" with the grooves in a pivotal tone arm.

Thats just my initial thought, but I would love to hear some opinions before I make any plunge

Thanks!

[swt61]

Personally I've had great experience with LTs through the years.

I could only imagine a well thought out tonearm such as the Clearaudio would be fantastic.

[shaizada]

Thanks for the reply swt.

Basically, after you had put up yours for sale, I just lusted after a vinyl setup. Spoke with my wife and convinced her that I needed one for the "complete" experience.

She has a box or two full of old "Hindi" songs on LP's made my the Gramaphone company of India. I told her how she could play them and enjoy them! That sealed the deal.

So I came across a turntable with that linear tracking arm and it just feels right. I know 909 has something like that on his biotracer, so I thought I would run it by you guys to see if there were any major deficiencies with that design.

Your vote of confidence in that arm really helps....so thank you.

Hopefully the logistics of the purchase work out. Here is the table I am looking at:

[Hopstretch]

You don't fuck around at the entry level, do you?

[deepak]

From an engineering stand point, it seems to me that a cartridge would find it easier to track in a linear tone arm as opposed to "traveling" with the grooves in a pivotal tone arm.

Thats just my initial thought, but I would love to hear some opinions before I make any plunge

I'm trying to picture why, but I don't get what you mean by this?

Do you mean with a LT tonearm the stylus is perpendicular to the record groove, whereas with a standard tonearm the stylus contact is at more of an angle?

[postjack]

yes deepak, I think that is what he means.

in theory, LT tonearms are closer to the cutting lathe, but in practice they have been difficult to implement successfully, I guess for mechanical reasons.

[n_maher]

I'm trying to picture why, but I don't get what you mean by this?

Do you mean with a LT tonearm the stylus is perpendicular to the record groove, whereas with a standard tonearm the stylus contact is at more of an angle?

Deepak,

In "linear tracking" systems (at least as far as I understand them) the stylus and tonearm remain tangential to the record at all times. I think this picture probably says it better than I can.

[shaizada]

You don't fuck around at the entry level, do you?

I'm not really the kind of person who likes to turn around gear and just recycle. I try to buy few things, but for the long haul. If I find something much superior and it works out financially, then I upgrade. Otherwise I try to make more permanent decisions.

I went ahead and talked to a local dealer who is willing to come out to my house for a $200 fee to help setup that whole table. I figured I would take him up on that as it would be a difficult affair and with my lack of experience, I don't want to mess anything up.

I'm trying to picture why, but I don't get what you mean by this?

Do you mean with a LT tonearm the stylus is perpendicular to the record groove, whereas with a standard tonearm the stylus contact is at more of an angle?

Hey Deepak (my best buddy in India, his name is Deepak as well),

Acutally, what I mean is that in a linear tracking arm, the arm is tangential in one place (moves in just one axis) and just the cartridge moves across the LP. In a pivotal arm, the cartridge and whole tone arm assembly moves along the vinyl grooves effectively traveling with the grove angularly. I'm having a tough time explaining in words, but it's quite clear in my mind (hehe that doesn't really help does it? ).

In my very limited understanding about vinyl, the actual stylus contact point (the tip) should probably be perfect vertical to the groove correct? I understand it to be misaligned if the stylus tip makes contact with the groove at an angle. I imagine that would bring about distortion in the signal. Again, I'm no vinyl expert by any means...I'm just imagining the situation and gaining knowledge along the way.

[Donald North]

The Clearaudio tonearms are an evolution of the Souther tonearm from the 1980s, of which I owned one. It was OK and an interesting idea but far from state of the art. There's lots of play in the horizontal bearing, which will cause resonance. The arrmtube is small diameter and will also resonate. Because the armtube is very short, the records need to be perfectly flat (no warps) otherwise you will hear warp wow.

If you want linear tracking, I have 2 suggestions: Airbearing via an Airtangent tonearm or servo linear tracking via a Goldmund T-3F. Both of these are far more serious tonearms.

[deepak]

Ah I understand what you're saying now, I sort of meant the same thing, but perpendicular probably wasn't the correct term

I'm aware of the technology, a close friend of mine had a Kuzma Stabi XL on loan that uses a linear tracking tonearm. Unfortunately I never had a chance to hear it while he had it \ (ultimately he preferred his Aries table, even though he thought the Stabi XL was technically superior).

[Pars]

I would agree that if it could be properly implemented, a linear arm should have it over a conventional arm from a geometric perspective.

I had to laugh as this reminded me of the Sony POS table I had in the '80s in between Thorens' with a mechanically driven linear arm. Which would mechanically drive itself into the groove wall and skip occasionally. Trying to deal with Sony service and finally giving up (after realizing they weren't able to do anything about an engineering defect) was the beginning of the end for me and Sony.

[luvdunhill]

Just because a technology is used to cut a record, doesn't make it good. Case in point, inner grove distortion.

[flecom]

Just because a technology is used to cut a record, doesn't make it good. Case in point, inner grove distortion.

i think thats more an artifcat of the record itself... cd's dont suffer this issue becuase they spin faster the closer to the center of the disk to keep the data rate constant

im working on a linear project... picked up an ET tonearm 2 from a friend of mine for really cheap... probably going to mount it on a thorens or something

[deepak]

i think thats more an artifcat of the record itself... cd's dont suffer this issue becuase they spin faster the closer to the center of the disk to keep the data rate constant

Hmm not too sure about that. Inner groove distortion is usually the result of improper setup or crappy equipment

I have heard plenty of setups that have no inner groove distortion at all.

[Donald North]

Inner groove distortion is a function of playback - it's not in the record itself because it was cut linearly.

Play a record with a good linear tracking tonearm and cartridge with microline stylus and there is no audible inner groove distortion.

[luvdunhill]

Just because a technology is used to cut a record, doesn't make it good. Case in point, inner grove distortion.

yeah, that didn't come out right I'm not even sure what point I was trying to make either...

[shaizada]

I've been talking to another person and I've been offered the following:

VPI TNT HR-V with JMW 12.5 Arm, SDS Speed Controller

Some $2400 Clearaudio Cartridge ( don't know exactly which one)

VPI Turntable Rack (as the turntable is very wide and will not fit in my stillpoints rack)

All this for $4500 plus shipping from NY. Probably a couple hunded.

What do you guys think about this?

Should I stick with the beauty and class of the Clearaudio, or pick up this more practical and definitely fine sounding rig? God, I'm very confused!

I'll probably be getting pictures tonight.

With the Clearaudio, it fits right into my rack, but I still need to get a cartridge (probably an UWE Denon 103R, or the Zyx bloom in the FS forum).

----Update----

Just got the following email and pictures while I was typing this up:

Vpi TNT-5 Hot Rod Turntable JMW Memorial 12. 5 Tonearm TNT V, and SDS Synchronous Drive System. This is a very late TNT-5 HOT ROD which has the incomparable HRX drive system! The table is in as new condition. $4895.

Please do not mistake this for the lesser standard TNT-5.

This sale is for the TNT complete turntable; JMW arm and SDS Synchronous Drive System. Exceedingly little use and appears as new.

Note: The C5001 TNT Stand and custom made top is available seperately. It works wonderfully and looks great with the TNT table.

In 2002 Hi-Fi Magazine choose it as the “Product of the Year and Editors Choice”, the following year Stereophile named the TNT-5 HR the “product of the year” and Absolute Sound honored the JMW 12.5 tonearm with their Golden Ear Award.

[deepak]

I don't know the old TNT turntables don't really hold their value well from what I've seen.

[shaizada]

Deepak, I sincerely doubt that most turntables hold their value though.

My main concern is to basically buy once and be done with the turntable side of things.

My gut tells me though that the Clearaudio would be a better choice for the long run. It is beautiful, compact and allows for an extra arm. I could technically get another tone arm down the line and add a mono cartridge to it or something like that.

I'd be tapped out financially if I go with the Clearaudio so I have to really get a good performing low cost cartridge for now I guess.

I'll probably be picking up Craigs new phono stage as it sounded amazing at CanJam.

[shaizada]

The link on the first post is gone and I can't edit it to fix it. Anyhow, here is the tone arm we're talking about:

[mulveling]

I have absolutely no experience with either of those tables, but my instinct would direct me STRONGLY towards the VPI. It's a superb example of the no-nonsense aesthetic (IMO), you can tell the thing is robust as hell and just oozes of quality, and I know that VPI makes superb sounding tables even at much lower price points.

The look of the Clearaudio - just rubs me the wrong way. Doesn't instill rock-solid confidence like with the VPI. Personally, I know I'd LOVE to push that VPI into my main rig

That said, I have nothing against linear trackers. I've got a Merill Heirloom with the ET 2 air bearing linear tracker. It's still got the vintage cart it came with (> 20 years old), and that cart is a bear to work with (very LOW output and IIRC LOW compliance). That setup has unfortunately been sitting in the queue for a cartridge upgrade, for a while now. I'd love to get a Kontrapunkt "a" or "h" or maybe a Benz Wood SL on there soon-ish. Even with the old cart, it sounds excellent and shows a lot of promise. The quirk of this linear arm is that the lateral effective mass is MUCH higher than the vertical: 22 grams vs 7 g. That makes a narrow window of carts that will handle that range well. I'd think the carts I mentioned would be on the ends of that window.

The other thing, is that the ET 2 is a bit fussy to use. My Fidelity-Research FR64fx pivot arm is SO easy to use, I can manage it while fairly inebriated, WITH some crazy redhead chick going on about what album she would rather listen to, and still not worry about doing damage. Not so with the ET 2! The FR is a dream to use. It's also a NICE pivot arm. I've never noticed decreased quality on the inner grooves. If anything, the outer grooves are more problematic, since record warping and all its nasty subsonic products are at its worst there. With a longer pivot arm like on that TNT, I believe inner groove handling should be of no concern at all.

[spritzer]

I don't know how it is in the US but in the UK, Clearaudio has some package options where they include some of their own pickups when you buy a table/arm. It would be worth checking out if you have your heart set on one...

[Donald North]

That said, I have nothing against linear trackers. I've got a Merill Heirloom with the ET 2 air bearing linear tracker. The quirk of this linear arm is that the lateral effective mass is MUCH higher than the vertical: 22 grams vs 7 g. That makes a narrow window of carts that will handle that range well. I'd think the carts I mentioned would be on the ends of that window.

The lateral mass of the ET2 is closer to 100 grams. I disassembled one several years ago and weighed the mass of each component. With eccentric records, the stylus has to move the entire moving mass back and forth, which modulates vertical tracking force and causes extra side wall wear.

As to the VPI turntable, I'd avoid the 12.5 tonearm which is nothing special. If you want pivoted, go SME V.

[shaizada]

Mulveling, that is so true. There is a level of solidity that oozes from the VPI. A set it and forget it kind of a feeling. Feels like a solid Chevy Yukon. The Clearaudio feels like a Mercedez Benz. I've been assured it is a very solid unit as well (as it should be with a retail of $10,000 for the table and another $7,000 for the arm).

Aesthetically, it would easily fit into my system as well, and with a Clearaudio dealer 10 minutes away from my house, I can risk some quirkiness as he would be a phone call away.

Here is a review of the table thats gnawing away at me:

DAGOGO Review: Clearaudio Anniversary AMG Wood CMB Turntable

I don't know how it is in the US but in the UK, Clearaudio has some package options where they include some of their own pickups when you buy a table/arm. It would be worth checking out if you have your heart set on one...

By pickup you mean the Clearaudio stylus correct? The dealer is trying to sell me a $1700 pickup but there is no way I'm spending that right now if I get this table. The ability to have multiple tone arms is a huge plus also.

In my mind, it's the exotic side (Clearaudio) versus the more practical robust side (TNT HR-V).

Someone just make a decision for me...please

[shaizada]

The lateral mass of the ET2 is closer to 100 grams. I disassembled one several years ago and weighed the mass of each component. With eccentric records, the stylus has to move the entire moving mass back and forth, which modulates vertical tracking force and causes extra side wall wear.

As to the VPI turntable, I'd avoid the 12.5 tonearm which is nothing special. If you want pivoted, go SME V.

Donald,

How are your skills with setting up an arm like the Master TQ-1? Just curious if I can learn some of them from you if I ever do end up owning such an arm.