JH Audio stuffs

[grawk]

Anyone that's ever paid attention to JHA knows that they release new upgrades the minute they come up with them.  He may be getting branding and sales advice, but I think his product development cycle is run by Doug from Up.

[Sherwood]

Ultimate ears.

 

You take that back!

[Leonardo Drummond]

Anyone that's ever paid attention to JHA knows that they release new upgrades the minute they come up with them.  He may be getting branding and sales advice, but I think his product development cycle is run by Doug from Up.

 

Can't argue with that!

[nnotis]

It's the A&K association that has me suspicious.  Something about that company really trips my audiophile bullshit-o-meter.  They seem to have mastered the time honored art of making nice looking things that cost WAY more money than their performance would otherwise merit.

 

But if armature designers have recently made a big engineering jump, great.  They'll be popping up in all of the high end IEMs soon.  If big jumps in armature engineering keep happening every year for the next four, even better.  Start saving now for the finest of 2019. 

[jp11801]

at the thing is the Angie and Layla are totally different than the 13, 16 and Roxanne from a design standpoint. The 13,16 and Roxanne are all stage monitors and are designed to replicate live sound (think like bass or kick drum experience) and all it's physicality. The Angie and Layla are designed around the studio environment so in effect the Layla and Angie will sound more alike than the Roxanne. If you like the JH line sound house sound then just stop whining about the fact that there is something more fucking expensive out there and the (oh god help me ) I don;t have the bestest there is wha wha wha... 

 

Your shit is still great I'm pretty sure it didn't change because Jerry made some new shit. They only difference is now you don;t have the perceived TOTL. I live studio monitors so the Layla is right up my alley most "audiophile like consumer high end speakers with designed in EQ to bump the bass, warm the kids and sweeten the highs. 

[Leonardo Drummond]

at the thing is the Angie and Layla are totally different than the 13, 16 and Roxanne from a design standpoint. The 13,16 and Roxanne are all stage monitors and are designed to replicate live sound (think like bass or kick drum experience) and all it's physicality. The Angie and Layla are designed around the studio environment so in effect the Layla and Angie will sound more alike than the Roxanne. If you like the JH line sound house sound then just stop whining about the fact that there is something more fucking expensive out there and the (oh god help me ) I don;t have the bestest there is wha wha wha... 

 

Your shit is still great I'm pretty sure it didn't change because Jerry made some new shit. They only difference is now you don;t have the perceived TOTL. I live studio monitors so the Layla is right up my alley most "audiophile like consumer high end speakers with designed in EQ to bump the bass, warm the kids and sweeten the highs. 

 

Those were'nt my points

[jp11801]

no your point seems to be ... JH should have 

 

A) Informed you of what they have in the R&D pipeline at any time so you make make an informed decision (an then bitch about it if it doesn't come out and call them names after) 

B ) not release a perceived better product once it is market ready because it may hurt your feelings.

C) never ever ever never ever never say something is the TOTL ever never ever never !!! Because they may make something better down the road that will supersede your purchase and as a a consequence hurt your feelings 

 

Seriously I've had issues at times with customer service and ability to meet deadlines... but WTF why chastise a company for market innovation 

 

oh shit I forgot to put the smiley face in to show where just amicably chatting 

Edited December 23, 2014 by jp11801

[recstar24]

I will add it does come across as your bitter you no longer have the TOTL, and it appears like you believe you were misled that you would have the TOTL for ever and ever. So I don't think JP is that far off.

[Leonardo Drummond]

My points are:

 

1 - The process of buying customs is very different than regular headphones since reselling them to upgrade is a lot more difficult, especially if you live outside the US like I do. So I’d much rather save for longer and get the best I can.

 

2 - Jerry clearly stated that the Roxys were going to be the top of the line CIEMs in this new range. This was one of the reasons why I got it. Then, the very next model he launches, less than a year later and after a lot of serious problems and delays with the Roxannes that made a lot of costumers receive the IEMs after more than half that time, contradicts that.

 

3 - Apparently, this new model – which may indeed have a different sound signature, but nevertheless – fixes one of the things that bothers me in the Roxannes, something about which I spoke here when I received them.

 

4 - While I do like my Roxannes very much, maybe I would have liked to have been spoken to HONESTLY in the first place so that I could have been given a choice. If I knew that I would have to wait 4/5 months for my Roxys and that in less than a year there would be a new TOTL maybe I would have preferred to wait, and I highly doubt that many here would do otherwise. And you see, this isn’t as if I went blindly into it. It was told by Jerry that that wouldn’t happen.

 

And in any case, even if I didn’t have a Roxanne I’d think that this is just not a good strategy to run business. It may well work while you’re FOTM, but the number of people who are seeing this case as dubious, at best, at the other place already shows that this kind of behavior can and will be damaging in the long run. This in itself (even if you put the ethics of this out of the equation) already defines what they did as wrong in terms of brand management. If you’re ahead of a brand, your word has value. As I said, as I designer who studied and worked a bit with branding, IMO the most important (and hardest) thing for a brand to achieve with its consumers is trust. If Jerry stated that the Roxannes would be the TOTL in this range, then even if at the time he honestly thought that were true (which I doubt) he shouldn’t even have begun to work on something better for a while. Maybe it would've been best to just not say anything. That way, people who got into the Roxanne train woulnd'nt have anything to complain about. I certainly wouldn't be. That’s what any serious and ethic person/company would do. That's my main point.

 

Maybe I'm coming across as angrier than I am – I'm just a bit annoyed by the situation –, it's just that I'm trying to prove my point.

 

By the way, I'm amicably chatting indeed (dunno about you, JP), I have a thick skin.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Leonardo Drummond

[Torpedo]

Leonardo, you're wrong. You're just pissed off because you thought you were buying the best custom IEM forever and ever and you ended up owning a midrange IEM. So what? live with your Roxannes or move on, sell them and get the new TOTL which probably will be TOTL for a few months. That's how market economy and consumerism goes. It's either joining the merry-go-round of purchasing every few months a new "best" or learning to be happy with what you got once it gives some decent performance for your needs.

[jp11801]

ok you win I agree you feel this way 

 

Jerry been FOTM since 2009 that a long run by FOTM standards

[Leonardo Drummond]

Well, seems I won't convince anyone. In any case, I'm happy to agree to disagree. Antonio, yeah, I'll still enjoy the Roxannes just as much – sometimes I crave for something a little bit more analytical, though. 

 

JP, indeed, but I don't think that their problems are negligible. I've seen some people in here that wouldn't buy from them precisely because of that. Still, we'll see what happens in the future!

[jp11801]

hey we agreed again their issues are not negligible their customer service and ability to anticipate customer demand and have adequate manufacturing, quality control and supply chain infrastructure sucked for a while. 

 

I'm not the biggest Andy Regan fan (bad experience when he was with Monster at CanJam 2009) but I give him props for his turn around of most of the major issues that plagued JH. Jerry has always to a fault run creative and trusted people to run the business (at least from my perspective). It looks like this time around he's got the right people for the job (I hope) 

[recstar24]

I still don't get why you are so angry. What you are describing is a normal product cycle especially for audio that is somewhat tech driven. Cue apple and iPhone example - you know when you buy a new iPhone it will be replaced by a better model within a year. There is nothing of evidence to show jerry was being dishonest with you, i am sure he legitimately believed the Roxanne to be TOTL, but being a creative tweaker type, of course he is going to mKe something better. Go jh13.

[robm321]

I understand where you're coming from Leonardo. You're sharing your honest opinion as a customer on how you feel about JHA's random roadmap after a long delay on the Roxanne's. While you're feelings are genuine, you can't escape the fact that he designed a new IEM and decided it was his new flagship regardless what he said in the past, and I can't really blame him for that. 

 

I have zero care about any artificial pride in owning something labeled "flagship". I really like the sound of the Roxanne's. They fit the bill, and I would not have bought a $2,500 IEM if it were available at the time. Let's face it, IEMs are convenient and portable but limited. 

 

Trying to keep up with the current TOTL IEMs coming out will empty your wallet and leave you frustrated. Get off the runaway train and enjoy what you have brother 

[Torpedo]

Leonardo, I can understand your frustration and that you're somewhat deceived, but the cold fact is that manufacturers, as soon as they can produce a new "improvement" and charge you for it, they'll do. You've been in this hobby long enough to know. If you're happy with the Roxannes, just enjoy them, but if you think they can be improved and you know more or less for sure that another product improves that, swap them and don't look back. One of our biggest problems as audio hobbyists is not knowing where we want to go and what we want to achieve. Not knowing that places us in that silly continuous "searching for the better". IMO it's just ignorance disguised as curiosity fuelling that.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Torpedo

[Grahame]

And the lack of an objective, independently verifiable "better"? Hence being at the mercy of Marketing and others opinions? 

Because we can't know, for sure? (audiophillia nervosa)

[Leonardo Drummond]

Thanks for the sensible words and thoughts guys, I appreciate it, really. I suppose I'm putting more weight in Jerry's words - and maybe it was naive of me to do so.

Antonio, yeah, while I'm quite happy with my desktop setup (have been for a while), in the portable system, which I have been using a lot lately, I kind of crave for the same versatility. While the Roxanne improves upon the JH13s on many levels, it takes one specific direction, while the 13s (pre freqphase at least) kind of felt like a happy medium. So now there are moments when I want a more analytical presentation. But well, I guess that's another matter

[Dusty Chalk]

1 - The process of buying customs is very different than regular headphones since reselling them to upgrade is a lot more difficult, especially if you live outside the US like I do. So I’d much rather save for longer and get the best I can.

That's easily solved -- never buy anything.  

No, seriously, there's something called "buyer's remorse", and there are a couple things that exacerbate it -- the biggest one is continuing to shop for the product after you've already purchased it.  I mean, we even have terms for this -- audiophile nervosa, upgradeitis, etc.  The more you spend on something -- the more you push yourself to reach above what is financially reasonable for you -- the more likely you are to feel this way afterwards.  It's just like computers or anything else -- get the best that you can afford (that matches your requirements) that is available on the market.  

 

It also sounds to me you bought them based on the opinions of others, or was it based entirely on brand reputation?  That's always a mistake.  I realize there is no other way to audition customs but that's one reason I don't own any customs -- there's no way around it.

 

I suppose I'm putting more weight in Jerry's words - and maybe it was naive of me to do so.

I think this -- combined with the above -- is the problem in the nutshell.  Kudos for recognizing it.

[Torpedo]

So the actual problem is that the Roxannes, while very good on some aspects, are not the happy midfield you were enjoying. As you and Dusty say, you took Jerry's words too seriously. I for one wouldn't spend that kind of money on custom IEMs unless I've been able to sample them in some "reliable" way. And probably not even were that the case. But if most people were like Dusty and I there wouldn't be a market for customs.

[Sherwood]

[Leonardo Drummond]

Don't get me wrong though, Antonio, I still love the Roxannes! They're just not quite as versatile as the JH13s, I think.

[nnotis]

I haven't heard the freakphase 13s, but I find the Roxannes a lot more versatile than the 2009 13s. Roxannes don't roll off as much at the very top. And they're much more sensitive to sibilant highs. That sounds like a bad thing, but I'm paranoid about making sibilant recordings, so I appreciate that. And then there's the base detail...

[Leonardo Drummond]

I haven't heard the freakphase 13s, but I find the Roxannes a lot more versatile than the 2009 13s. Roxannes don't roll off as much at the very top. And they're much more sensitive to sibilant highs. That sounds like a bad thing, but I'm paranoid about making sibilant recordings, so I appreciate that. And then there's the base detail...

 

Really? My unit was pre-freqphase as well! Goes to show how we all hear differently

[nnotis]

I also find they bring an extra layer of focus over the 13s. Imaging in every axis is much sharper. But you're right. Everyone hears differently. And maybe I'm just exaggerating the difference to justify blowing $1600 last year.

I do notice two distinct camps of people on head-fi though. Some people think the Roxannes are way too dark at first. Others initially find them too sibilant. I haven't seen such a dichotomy of signature impressions. I don't know what it means, but I was definitely in the sibilant camp.