The Great Head-Case Cable Debate

[Elephas]

Regarding the UPOCC, anyone tried some balanced cables using the Neotech stuffs?

I've just ordered some from SonicCraft and still not sure what to do with them.

I got some Neotech power cable in bulk, but haven't tried their XLR or RCA interconnects. I would assume (just speculation) that they would be somewhat similar to some Acoustic Zen interconnects. I do have a pair of Acoustic Zen Silver Reference 2 XLR.

Can a mod change the title of this thread to "The Do Cables Make a Difference Useless Arguments on Internet Forums Thread?" So I can stay out of it.

[luvdunhill]

I mean, you'll always win the argument on your terms. Because in your test scenario, "significantly changes function of the test system" is not allowed. If this is the case, how can there possibly be an audible difference? If there is a change, you'll just redefine "significant" until there is no latitude in choosing test subjects.

[n_maher]

I cleaned this up as best I could with limited time, have at it if you must.

Edited May 27, 2009 by n_maher

[luvdunhill]

So, is it possible that there can be differences in cables, due to how the cable can interact with a properly functioning system. This isn't a matter or properly constructed cables, but extends to commercial cables that may have difference resistance, inductance, and capacitance values. Can this RLC circuit interact with the system and can produce different sounding cables?

[luvdunhill]

this is a very different thing from what the test you proposed.

ok, so your saying that cables can sound different.

[grawk]

oh good christ. Fucking zealots the lot of you

[luvdunhill]

yes, there can be differences.

excellent. I thought you were arguing that there cannot be differences, so I was giving examples where there is a demonstrable difference.

As for your statement about "scientifically valid test relies on testing one variable", for six grade science projects yes you're right, real world tests aren't this easy. Why do things like chi squared tests exists? Why have multivariate techniques like support vector machines (SVM) and their kernal based derivatives. Will the debate between the Gaussians and the Frequentitsts ever be solved? no.

For example, your single variable is silver versus copper. In fact, that's not a single variable. There are a number of different variables being changed there. So, you say only one thing can be changed, but scientifically this is impossible. This is why I find your line of logic specious.

[luvdunhill]

can i say with some confidence, however, that conductor differences, which is what was being tested for, were not picked out or preferred at levels above chance? yes.

that's fair. I just want to point out that some systems are more prone to difference in cables at a technical level.

Just because you tried this test in a single system, doesn't mean *you* can reproduce it in other systems. This is what you're implying.

[JBLoudG20]

I really see it this way: can different cables sound different? Yes. Is it because of the material used? Yes and no.

Say there was a way to equalize the measurable aspects: I.e. ensure that given two different cables, the impedance, capacitance, cross-talk, RF shielding, etc. are all consistant, and the ONLY differences are the type of metal conductor used.

This is likely impossible, but let's assume for a moment it is true, I'd like to belive these cables would sound exactly the same.

Since this is not the case, i.e. physical characteristics differ, it is not accurate to say "silver sounds brighter than copper". More, the physical characteristics of the silver cable (be it geometry, material characteristics, etc) cause it to sound brighter.

This is in an ideal situation, where the differences can be perceived. I believe its another debate entirely between the differences existing, and the differences being heard.

My stance on cables: quality components with quality construction. I don't find much need for more than mogami with canare RCAs.

[luvdunhill]

My point isn't to use multiple cables, I agree that your finding are probable. I'm suggesting using multiple systems, as this is from a scientific standpoint where you'll probably see tractable differences. I'm citing technical reasons for why you have an endemic bias in your setup.

Since other systems may be more prone to RLC differences that cables present to the system (a statement you agreed with) then you cannot claim that there is no difference until you've tried your experiment on their particular system.

thank you for your disproval of empirical scientific experimentation.

finally we've gotten to the good ole fashion way to handle these debates.

Just disproving of what's taught in grade school. Like I said, there are methods, like the ones outlined above, that are used to deal with real world covariance and variable dependency. I'm not disproving the scientific theory, just saying that there are ways to handle more complex tests that are equally valid. You said that single variable tests are the only valid tests, of course this is false.

[Pars]

I'd agree. When I got back into hifi, I started down the cable path (ala audioasylum, risch, etc.). Reading the newsgroups (rec.audio.*), I ran across some posts by Bruno Putzeys, at that time a digital engineer for Philips, who posted that yes, he could hear differences in cables, but as an engineer it bothered him because instinctively he knew that he shouldn't be hearing these. He went on to form a hypothesis that these differences existed mainly because of impedance mismatches. Not sure if he ever did anything about that. But at any rate, my view of cables is that they are expensive tone controls. This along with my experiences led me to conclude that going down the expensive commercial cable path was not for me. Sure, I DIY cables from time to time (latest neotech UPOCC jon risch silver-recipe construction type, similar to what spritzer does). Do I think they sound different? Don't know; I put them in the system; they sound good; I leave them alone;D Quality construction, materials etc., yes. Crazy prices? No.

And sure Marc, you start playing around with passive filters (essentially) on cables, you can make them sound different. And probably upset some electronics in the process. Think MIT cables with their little boxes at the ends.

[spritzer]

Woot I made a thread without even being logged on! Fear my Norse god powers you mere mortals!!!

[spritzer]

[padam]

Sooo, should I bother getting a decent silver mini-RCA cable for connecting the Pico and the T1S? At least I could test it directly against the current one which uses the RCA output (Zu Gede).

[ingwe]

Don't know; I put them in the system; they sound good; I leave them alone;D Quality construction, materials etc., yes. Crazy prices? No.

QFT

[deepak]

This was a good read. Thanks for the Hagerman article Marc.

[grawk]

5 years of headfi cable debate summarized in 2 hrs.

[Aimless1]

30+ years of cable debates and we're still no closer to agreement.

Back in the 70s we did our DBTs with interconnects against lamp cords

I'll stay out of this one. A new decade with new measuring devices. Same old conclusions.

[atothex]

This thread sure blew up. I hear differences between cables, though.

[manaox2]

I sometimes believe I hear differences. Usually its not nearly enough to justify price to me, so I don't bother worrying about it.

[n_maher]

I sometimes believe I hear differences. Usually its not nearly enough to justify price to me, so I don't bother worrying about it.

DIY FTMFW

[grawk]

I don't care if I can hear the difference or not, SuckitAlo cables are moar better.

[Pars]

DIY FTMFW

Yep.

I don't care if I can hear the difference or not, SuckitAlo cables are moar better.

That's a given

[spritzer]

I can't imagine going back to unwieldy commercial cables. I can wrap my cables around two fingers and they weigh next to nothing.

[MoonShine]

It isn't a real cable debate until someone gets banned (not volunteering).