The Great Head-Case Cable Debate

[luvdunhill]

so, other words, you don't have results.

in other words, yes I do. If I can pick the capacitance difference, that's trivial.

[luvdunhill]

let me see the results, then.

how large of capacitance difference do I get? Also, if the amplifier blows up with one of the two cables, then can we assume there is a difference (assuming the cable works, and the only difference is capacitance)?

Also, read the link above. The math is simple and shows why there will definitely be a frequency response change in an analog system with difference cable capacitances.

Edited May 27, 2009 by luvdunhill

[luvdunhill]

i would judge your designs as relying on circumstances where capacitance significantly changes operation

no shit. Therefore, there are cables that can change the sound of a system. Phono cables are a very good example of this. Again, I could take ordinary components and build a system that would demonstrate this. In fact, I have done this very thing.

Have you ever DBT a phono cable?

Edited May 27, 2009 by luvdunhill

[Hopstretch]

tests can be designed to give any result wanted, if there are no bounds.

I'd quite like to go back in time and have another crack at Jenny Alexander, in that case. Happy to pay for the necessary UPOCC cabling.

[luvdunhill]

(large capacitance differences, for instance, though never massively preferred, from a statistical standpoint)

i would judge your designs as relying on circumstances where capacitance significantly changes operation

anyways, my point was that I disagreed with the first statement quoted above. Still do.

Large capacitance differences in my experience in a specific instance were "massively preferred". While the story will be claimed to be anecdotal at best, the cables in question were indeed commercial cables and the system wasn't rigged together to prove a point. A simple frequency plot proved the 7-0 or so bias and was attributed very clearly to capacitance differences.

[feckn_eejit]

I'd quite like to go back in time and have another crack at Jenny Alexander, in that case. Happy to pay for the necessary UPOCC cabling.

GIS sans safesearch, result #2&5?

[Dreadhead]

I said I wouldn't get involved but I must.

When properly designed all cables are the same. The test you described sounds like the old monster cable one where they took a 200ft roll 24awg wire and compared it to 200ft of 8 guage of their wire. Realistic? No. Proper use? No. In your case if the wire being used influenced the frequency response then something is wrong with the wire. If it was that simple every bloody wire manufacturer would just show their plots..... but somehow they don't.... strange:palm:

That said if you claim you can hear the difference between gold vs silver vs copper for a solid core wire for the same length and AWG then you're probably hearing placebo since if there was a difference the manufacturers would again show it proudly.

One of my favorites to show the fickleness of human perception: Study: $90 wine tastes better than the same wine at $10 | Underexposed - CNET News

[luvdunhill]

I said I wouldn't get involved but I must.

When properly designed all cables are the same. The test you described sounds like the old monster cable one where they took a 200ft roll 24awg wire and compared it to 200ft of 8 guage of their wire. Realistic? No. Proper use?

My test was not like this, it used commercial cables.

However, to disprove Reks statement "large capacitance differences, for instance, though never massively preferred, from a statistical standpoint" of course I'd choose a corner case, I'd be stupid not to, it's much easier that way.

[mirumu]

it gets my goat because it's a waste of money that is usually touted as being completely necessary.

I think it depends what kind of cables we're talking about. There's a significant difference between a quality well made cable and some expensive voodoo wire claiming to be sprinkled in magical pixie dust. The ones that get my goat are the exceedingly expensive HDMI and digital coax cables. I can't help do a when a salesman is an apparent expert on how ordinary cables noticeably corrupt digital signals, but somehow doesn't even know what a packet or ECC bits are.

[Lil' Knight]

Regarding the UPOCC, anyone tried some balanced cables using the Neotech stuffs?

I've just ordered some from SonicCraft and still not sure what to do with them.

[The Monkey]

I'm generally a cable agnostic, but I agree with reks here: show us some data. If it's reasonable to take someone's subjective opinion about the differences between silver and copper, then it also is reasonable to ask for data that would tend to support that subjective experience. That people take such personal offense at such requests is telling. There's a certain arrogance to the "Well I heard it, so you have to believe it" camp that I find particularly annoying, and, in the end, lacking in credibility.

Skipjack FTW!

[luvdunhill]

There's a certain arrogance to the "Well I heard it, so you have to believe it" camp that I find particularly annoying, and, in the end, lacking in credibility.

yeah, and the "well I haven't heard it, so you have to believe it" camp isn't just as annoying and lacking the same credibility Until Reks DBT a phono cable before a SUT, I guess we'll never know.

Edited May 27, 2009 by luvdunhill

[Dusty Chalk]

Not as annoying as the "science doesn't explain it yet, therefore it must not exist" camp.

[luvdunhill]

Not as annoying as the "science doesn't explain it yet, therefore it must not exist" camp.

science explains my experience with the phono cable, see the link posted above.

[The Monkey]

Both reasonable responses, but I suppose I find it more disingenuous when people so adamantly state and/or believe that they are immune from any placebo effect.

[aardvark baguette]

[The Monkey]

This is the Stax thread, assfacehole, if you don't like moar random cable arguments then STFU!

[Tachikoma]

DIYHiFi.org • View topic - Why do 75R digital cables sound so different

If these guys think digital cables can be different who am I to argue with them.

DIYHifi is to diyaudio, what head-case is to head-fi.

[grawk]

filled with assholes who drink too much?

[Tachikoma]

filled with assholes who drink too much?

Possibly (ditto on the assholes part though) :D I know a fair number of them are senior members (who get paid for their work) who got booted out of diyaudio, much like a few of us here.

[luvdunhill]

who got booted out of diyaudio, much like a few of us here.

I wonder how far that analogy goes... so DIYHifi is to Twisted Pear Audio as head-case is to -=her=-?

[Tachikoma]

I wonder how far that analogy goes... so DIYHifi is to Twisted Pear Audio as head-case is to -=her=-?

I think it does go that far at least. I've seen the reception the twisted pear guys got over there, and it wasn't nice to say the least.

[mirumu]

DIYHiFi.org • View topic - Why do 75R digital cables sound so different

If these guys think digital cables can be different who am I to argue with them.

I must have missed the "Now with inline DSP!" bullet-points showing up on recent cable packaging.

[luvdunhill]

I think it does go that far at least. I've seen the reception the twisted pear guys got over there, and it wasn't nice to say the least.

yeah, I wonder why ....

[luvdunhill]

sure haven't.

ok, well perhaps I did misunderstand you. Sorry, this was anything but clear in the previous posts.

I have in fact done it with commercial cables (Audience low impedance and high impedance phono cables to be exact and another third party, MIT perhaps? In fact, capacitance wasn't even the varied quantity in this case) with a group of people and a frequency response analyzer. Obviously the DBT was performed before the frequency response was plotted.

I think your line of reasoning is fairly specious. You cannot invalidate the test if the DUT causes a change in the system. That's in fact what we're trying to prove.

Edited May 27, 2009 by luvdunhill