The Great Head-Case Cable Debate

[spritzer]

Yeah, moar power is always needed. The SR-007 also likes silver IC's so some DIY could be in your future.

[Dreadhead]

Yeah, moar power is always needed. The SR-007 also likes silver IC's so some DIY could be in your future.

Not me. I'm not a cable person. If it conducts I'm done.

[catscratch]

Not me. I'm not a cable person. If it conducts I'm done.

Understandable, but try some simple ABX testing with the O2 and silver vs copper cable. I was certainly very surprised at the results.

[Dreadhead]

Understandable, but try some simple ABX testing with the O2 and silver vs copper cable. You may be surprised. I know I was.

You have a cable ABX box? The only one I've heard of was rather complex and sadly unavailable unless I want to built one. My guess is you don't really mean ABX which is blind but just A/B where you know which is which. I've done some A/B with interconnects and I could never hear a difference but I don't think there is a difference so I guess I could be slanting the results. If you did real ABX I'm rather interested.

I've never seen an ABX for cables where the cable lengths were reasonably short (12ft or so) or the cable was suitably sized ever come up with statistically significant audible differences. This is for speaker cables I should be clear but I believe the same holds true for headphones and interconnects because of the much higher loads impedance.

Edit found this one:

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm

Edited May 26, 2009 by Dreadhead

[derekbmn]

Not me. I'm not a cable person. If it conducts I'm done.

I think you may quickly change your mind when it comes to different ICs and the O2s. They can literally make or break an O2 setup. The difference is pretty astounding between cables that works well with them, and ones that don't. (it's not subtle)

A few things to look for in an O2 cable-

A) Small awg pure silver wire.(think 30 to 32awg)

The use of dielectrics that have a low dielectric constant.(cotton, kynar) no Teflon !!!

C) RCA plugs that have small contact point(s) for the return line.

On the cheap these are a no brainer.

DIY Silver Interconnects

[Tachikoma]

The use of dielectrics that have a low dielectric constant.(cotton, kynar) no Teflon !!!

Just one thing, the dielectric constant quoted for cotton on wikipedia is unprocessed cotton ie the fluffy stuff you get from trees. When made into a fabric, the dielectric constant goes up to something like 4-5.

[catscratch]

You have a cable ABX box? The only one I've heard of was rather complex and sadly unavailable unless I want to built one. My guess is you don't really mean ABX which is blind but just A/B where you know which is which. I've done some A/B with interconnects and I could never hear a difference but I don't think there is a difference so I guess I could be slanting the results. If you did real ABX I'm rather interested.

Yes, I meant A/B testing, I didn't have an ABX box. It would be very interesting to get my hands on one though. I'm not one for endlessly debating the differences between cables either since to me that's always the very last component of the system, and so far I'm still swapping sources around trying to get the rig just right. But with the 007, and so far only with the 007 (both the Mk1 and Mk2), the difference was more noticeable right away rather than being more along the lines of "well I think I hear something but I'm not sure." There was more treble volume with the silver and a bit less midbass/lower midrange, and it was definitely more suited to the 007's FR. The 007's resolution is really startling and a whole host of considerations that just don't apply with most headphones suddenly start cropping up.

Definitely looking forward to your impressions with the KGSS.

[dvse]

But with the 007, and so far only with the 007 (both the Mk1 and Mk2), the difference was more noticeable right away rather than being more along the lines of "well I think I hear something but I'm not sure." There was more treble volume with the silver and a bit less midbass/lower midrange, and it was definitely more suited to the 007's FR.

When I had a 007t that allowed to switch between sources easily, picking up differences in cables was pretty much impossible when someone else was doing the switching even though it seemed clear before. For myself, I no longer comment on cable differences without at least a single blind test.

[catscratch]

Yeah, I've never done that so I don't know if what I heard was real or placebo. I'm open to either possibility.

[spritzer]

Well I have an idea where you can shove those DBT's... Whether you believe in cables or not (or connectors for that matter) every SR-007 owner should try different cables, leave them in the system for a couple of weeks and then change them back. If you can't hear the difference between a cheap cable and something better with the SR-007, go buy a markl modded Denon and some Rudistor amps.

[Elephas]

i've heard the differences between all kinds of gear. that doesn't mean the difference actually existed.

Yes, we already know that the O2Mk1 and O2Mk2 sound exactly the same, the alleged differences were not only being exaggerated by some people, they're imaginary.

Can we keep the "Cables make no difference" debate out of the Stax thread!?

And get back to debating O2 earpads (if n_maher isn't around)?

[Dreadhead]

Well I have an idea where you can shove those DBT's...

Only if you take your silver cables and shove them in the same spot

Can we keep the "Cables make no difference" debate out of the Stax thread!?

Agreed.

[Asr]

What is this cable tomfoolery? I say they make an audible difference! /shakes fist

[derekbmn]

have you DBTed it?

No...nor would I. Spritzer said it best.

[n_maher]

And get back to debating O2 earpads (if n_maher isn't around)?

[spritzer]

I can also hear a profound difference between digital cables...

Btw. Marc I want

[mirumu]

In the past when I compared ICs (copper and silver) I went in skeptical expecting to hear no difference whatsoever. To my surprise the difference was not subtle. Maybe there were other factors involved, but since then I've never had much faith in the "You only hear what you want to hear" train of thought.

[mirumu]

it's not about hearing what you "want" to hear.

how exactly did you compare the cables? where the cables competently built? there are aspects of cable design that can come out during DBT (large capacitance differences, for instance, though never massively preferred, from a statistical standpoint), but material has never been one of those things, in my experience. electrons is electrons.

The cables I was comparing were commercially made, but other than that I can't make any claims as to their build quality. This was a number of years back now. As I said there may have been other factors involved and those you describe world certainly be feasible. It may simply be the copper cables were just really poorly made.

I do agree that it's not about hearing what you want to hear, but that is an argument I see put forward from time to time on places like HF. It often devolves into the old "You must be deaf if you hear/don't hear X" argument. My point there was more that preconceived notions don't necessarily bias a test as long as we're open to the results being different to our expectations.

In my more recent experience I can't claim to notice any difference between properly constructed cables, although it has been a long time since I've had ICs made with silver to compare with.

[grawk]

Are you gonna give me shit about my clever little clock?

[Currawong]

I recommend getting these for an O2 rig. I have a pair, and they make a serious difference over cheap cables.

x2 DBTs can go shove it. All the ones I've seen people do on various forums were invalid.

[Hopstretch]

x2 DBTs can go shove it. All the ones I've seen people do on various forums were invalid.

Someone's going to ask. So, why?

[Dusty Chalk]

if an experiential test isn't double blind it's not really a test, that's the problem. not everything can be DBTed, of course, and it would take the fun out of the (subjectively based) hobby to constantly do it, but cables always get my goat, especially claims that certain conductor materials sound different. it's not a huge leap from saying "gold is warm sounding" to "this pebble placed on top of my cd player improved the soundstage."

Why (does it get your goat)?

So you're saying that unless the two cables were made exactly the same way, (braided, shielded, etc.) then you're going to use that as your explanation as to why they sound different, rather than the material?

[luvdunhill]

(large capacitance differences, for instance, though never massively preferred, from a statistical standpoint)

I dunno about this. I can give at least two examples where differences in capacitance are always massively preferred.

[luvdunhill]

in a cable DBT? i'd love to see it.

yup, I could guarantee it.

[luvdunhill]

do you have results? if so, i'd love to see them.

sure. I get to choose the setup and you can choose what you mean by "large differences in capacitance".

My key ingredients are a turntable, two cartridges, a step-up transformer, and a 70dB+ gain phono stage with MM switch. In this case, the cable is from the tonearm to either the step-up then to the MM option on the preamp, or the the MC input of the phono stage directly. Basic circuit would be similar to the ones in the below link, which also give an explanation on why capacitance is important and what it does to the resulting loading of the cartridge. Of course, since you specified "large" I would exaggerate things using the combination off the above equipment and probably roll of around 10kHz at a 3dB point. It would be very obvious.

Link: Hagerman Technology LLC: Cartridge Loading

Second setup would involve a pair of electrostatic headphones and the cable test would be in the headphone cable position. Key ingredient is a shitty as hell amplifier. Ray's A10 would probably work quite nicely.