Esoteric SA-50 SACD player

[Dreadhead]

This seems in contrast with your take on the two versions of Pet Sounds where you did not prefer the DCC version with its added distortion/less nice percussion which was probably from the original master tapes.

Icarium, actually I made a mistaken statement. The percussion was better on the DCC though the distortion was there. I corrected this a couple minutes later in chat last night. In the end I changed my mind anyway. I decided the distortion was worth the increased detail up hight and bass control. The DCC won in the end. That said there is a bit of what I would call digital weirdness going on in both tracks.... I'd love either version to own since I'll have to delete them soon anyway (I never keep anything I don't own for more than a week).

Edited April 21, 2009 by Dreadhead

[Dreadhead]

Also with all the tube gear that the DCC guy uses I am not entirely sure the distortion is really in the master.... Oh well an argument for another day.

[Icarium]

I am kind of curious what Hoffman's chain looks like. Info is probably available somewhere.

[Dreadhead]

I am kind of curious what Hoffman's chain looks like. Info is probably available somewhere.

Steve Hoffman Info Site | Equipment

Tubes tubes and more tubes. Plus some sweet audio stones.

Also uses this place:

http://www.recordtech.com/atmweb/atmequipment.htm

Which does have a model 2 but I think you can see his sensibilities from his home setup.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Dreadhead

[grawk]

I think his mastering gear looks pretty darn spectacular.

[Dreadhead]

?

I am alluding to the fact that tubes naturally add even order harmonic distortion and sometimes in large amounts, thought I doubt any of his gear would.

I would personally own very little of his gear but I am sure that it's amazing and well done tube so my allusion was probably just crap (as usual).

[Dreadhead]

I think his mastering gear looks pretty darn spectacular.

As I said I wouldn't own it but it does look that way.

[Icarium]

Wow fear his headphone system... AKG K-701 headphones with Ken Ball Alo audio upgrade and dunno about that Channel Islands amp either.

Woo6 isn't too shabby though.

[aardvark baguette]

Wow fear his headphone system...

Well when your primary source of headphone information is....

[Dreadhead]

well designed tube gear adds very little distortion.

Yup. Still more than a lot of SS stuff though.

Stereophile: VTL TL-6.5 Signature line preamplifier

Stereophile: Simaudio Moon Evolution P-7 line preamplifier

[AlanY]

I am alluding to the fact that tubes naturally add even order harmonic distortion and sometimes in large amounts, thought I doubt any of his gear would.

Yeah, but solid state gear tends to add odd-order distortion, moreover, higher-order distortion that's much more audible, even at a lower absolute level. Makes sense that he's using tube gear for accuracy.

[morphsci]

Wow fear his headphone system... AKG K-701 headphones with Ken Ball Alo audio upgrade and dunno about that Channel Islands amp either.

Woo6 isn't too shabby though.

If you have never heard Jena balanced K-701s on an amp with some oomph you might be surprised. You know, the monkey typing on a keyboard, etc. Just sayin'...

[Dusty Chalk]

Yup. Still more than a lot of SS stuff though.

Stereophile: VTL TL-6.5 Signature line preamplifier

Stereophile: Simaudio Moon Evolution P-7 line preamplifier

Also, the distortion affects the sound differently. Tube distortion doesn't sound as distorted as solid state distortion. And as close as those two examples are, I bet the VTL sounds less distorted.

Yes, I know, we agreed to disagree with that, but unless you've actually heard those two preamps side by side, you really are just "quoting measurements" -- a bane to most of the rest of us.

[Dreadhead]

Also, the distortion affects the sound differently. Tube distortion doesn't sound as distorted as solid state distortion. And as close as those two examples are, I bet the VTL sounds less distorted.

Yes, I know, we agreed to disagree with that, but unless you've actually heard those two preamps side by side, you really are just "quoting measurements" -- a bane to most of the rest of us.

I am well aware of the audibility of even vs odd order distortion etc (note my mention of even order above). I am not just quoting measurements. I am just stating facts. That even order distortion is at least an order of magnitude bigger than the SS amp. Both are very low but it's bigger.

[Dreadhead]

Yeah, but solid state gear tends to add odd-order distortion, moreover, higher-order distortion that's much more audible, even at a lower absolute level. Makes sense that he's using tube gear for accuracy.

Actually at least in the two examples I stated above the odd order for the tube amp is higher than for the SS amp (which probably has feedback).

Professionals use tube gear because it gives the music a "great quality", not for accuracy. I have no issue with other people preferring it though I don't. For me accuracy means the ability to reproduce the signal with as little as possible coloration or non-linearity. I have heard a few good tube amps that I liked but I would not own them, I still want to hear the 507a and the BHSE/BH though and if I like them I will eat crow and switch.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Dreadhead

[Dreadhead]

so in other words, who gives a flying fuck in a rolling donut

FTFY

[grawk]

take a flying fuck at the moooooooon

[Dreadhead]

take a flying fuck at the moooooooon

FTW

[Dusty Chalk]

Professionals use tube gear because it gives the music a "great quality", not for accuracy.

Incorrect. Most mastering engineers want as accurate a monitoring system as possible. Steve Hoffman, in particular. And by accurate, I don't mean "least distortion", I mean, "gives the greatest insight into the music being worked on and the ability to hear as much as possible what is going on in the mix". They don't care about numbers, they care about what they can hear.

[Dreadhead]

Incorrect. Most mastering engineers want as accurate a monitoring system as possible. Steve Hoffman, in particular. And by accurate, I don't mean "least distortion", I mean, "gives the greatest insight into the music being worked on and the ability to hear as much as possible what is going on in the mix". They don't care about numbers, they care about what they can hear.

Lots of mastering engineers use a purely SS system for exactly the same reason then. I guess the two camps differ in opinion much like we do.

I am no more incorrect than you are

I had a very nice email chain with a english mastering engineer who went from full SS (Prism + other stuff) to switching to the Hedd 192 + various tube so that he could get more feeling to his masters but he admitted he lost accuracy.

[Icarium]

I dunno there are two different definitions of accurate being thrown around.. accurate based on distortion levels measured and accuracy with regards to the original intent of the artist.

Which do you mean in your conversation with this British(?) mastering engineer? Also when he says he lost accuracy is that quantified with #s/comparisons or is that just his gut instinct?

[Dusty Chalk]

Lots of mastering engineers use a purely SS system for exactly the same reason then. I guess the two camps differ in opinion much like we do.

I am no more incorrect than you are

Agreed.

As has been stated elsewhere -- engineering/design/implementation has more to do with it than whether or not one is using tubes or SS. Although you were trying to compare apples to apples in your above comparison, I think when most people relate their experiences, they're comparing a nice system of one sort to a very nice system of another, so it's rarely a fair comparison.

I had a very nice email chain with a english mastering engineer who went from full SS (Prism + other stuff) to switching to the Hedd 192 + various tube so that he could get more feeling to his masters but he admitted he lost accuracy.

Was he talking about for monitoring? Or for the A-to-D conversion? Because I was talking about monitoring.

[Dreadhead]

I dunno there are two different definitions of accurate being thrown around.. accurate based on distortion levels measured and accuracy with regards to the original intent of the artist.

Which do you mean in your conversation with this British(?) mastering engineer? Also when he says he lost accuracy is that quantified with #s/comparisons or is that just his gut instinct?

Quite right British. Gut instinct I would say. He said he liked the character and flow that the news setup gave him and he loved the Hedd196's ability to model all the different tubes (it's a very neat piece of audio engineering)

As has been stated elsewhere -- engineering/design/implementation has more to do with it than whether or not one is using tubes or SS. Although you were trying to compare apples to apples in your above comparison, I think when most people relate their experiences, they're comparing a nice system of one sort to a very nice system of another, so it's rarely a fair comparison.Was he talking about for monitoring? Or for the A-to-D conversion? Because I was talking about monitoring.

He moved to taking the digital file -> Hedd -> all analog with tubes and without tubes -> tape I believe. He also monitored fully analog that way as well. He said the prism was more accurate though but did not "gel" with his setup. I actually got talking to him through the fact he posted the prism for sale but I missed out by a couple months.

I picked VTL because I thought they were considered well designed, but your point about design is very true.

[Dusty Chalk]

Just in case it wasn't clear, I was trying to say that you were obviously trying to pick two of the very nice category. I was also trying to say that most peoples' experiences are not usually with such two closely matched pieces of gear.

[veloaudio]

So has anyone had a chance to listen to a SA-50 yet? I see MusicDirect has them in stock so I could do a 30-day trial, but $5,000 is more than I'm looking to spend. I've read a few comments on the 'gon which were positive.

I need a digital input, preferably USB, but optical would be OK. I'm also thinking about the Audio Aero Capitole MKII.