Question: Should we bother with phase...?

[CD44hi]

I was not sure whether to post this in the dedicated source or amp section. Finally decided to post on the amp section

Been intrigued lately by something...

I know many popular preamps and headphone amps invert phase. I have also noticed reading some specifications (and some dedicated source forums), that some sources have balanced terminals with inverted phase. (i.e. Accuphase, Burmester, and others), with different pin designation for signals.

So my thoughts: So if a preamp, or a headamp that it is known to invert phase is used along with one of the afored mentioned sources (which inverts phase on the XLR outs,) would we finally achieve "the right phase?" My hesitation comes from the fact that I have read that it is inherently difficult to actually establish or recognize the phase of a recording, as it can vary even from track to track. SO should we even bother to invest any efforts into pursuing the right phase or it really doesn't matter....

I understand that it may be much more critical for speakers and specially subwoofers....but how about for cans.

Bueller??

[philodox]

Yes.

[Dusty Chalk]

No. Unless you're listening to binaural recordings (and for that matter, binaural recordings of which you know the phase), you're not going to be able to hear the difference. And even in that 1% of the time where a recording is binaural, you may not be able to tell the difference. Absolute phase only matters for imaging, and since headphones screw up imaging in 99% of recordings (which are recorded to image well on speakers, if they are recorded to image at all, which most of them are not). Not only does phase vary from track to track, but it can vary on different tracks of a multi-track master, to which you don't have access.

Here's a test that you might have access to: Cowboy Junkies, Trinity Sessions. Listen to it on headphones, try flipping the phase. If you can tell the difference -- and you have a preference and the preference is not arbitrary (I.E. you can tell which is correct, not just that you have a preference for one or the other) -- then congratulations, you should care for this recording.

[Dusty Chalk]

It should have gone under 'Miscellaneous'. That was the whole point to that forum. Things like synergy and polarity and how moving one's jack causes your DAC to go out of whack.

[CD44hi]

Dusty,

Your proposition about testing the phase using a cd is in principle a good one. But in the case in question it would involve having to change the pins on the source or maybe on some interconnects. So it is not as easy as fliping a switch in this case. And may be a bit too involved to be a useful excercise, no?

To all (and any) readers:

But what would inverting the phase do on headphones, if it is audible, would it conduce to a 180 degree shift on the sound? Please cope with my ignorance on the subject.

**Is it the same to invert the phase on a recording (source), as it is to invert the phase lets say on the pins on speakers?? In other words, recording phase vs hardware phase. Are they the same?

[Dusty Chalk]

Your proposition about testing the phase using a cd is in principle a good one. But in the case in question it would involve having to change the pins on the source or maybe on some interconnects. So it is not as easy as fliping a switch in this case. And may be a bit too involved to be a useful excercise, no?

Well, if you had HP-1's, it would be as simple as switching two switches, and if you had the Audio Alchemy DDE v3.0 (which I do), it would be as simple as pressing a button.

More on what it would do later, but the only place it should be important is on the initial transient, and whether or not the soundwave starts with a localized pressure peak or valley. The other way just shouldn't sound "right", but because of the mind's ability to adjust, it would still sound "mostly right" (or, in the case of those of us without golden ears, "right" [and I include myself in that category]).

[Post]

honestly with the HP1 i couldn't tell the diff tween both being neg or both being pos, but when you threw them out of phase (one neg one pos) it was a huge diff.

[philodox]

Depending on the recording you can totally hear the difference of it being out of phase. Especially in the bass and soundstaging... that said, for most recordings it doesn't matter all that much.

[Iron_Dreamer]

I've noticed the difference before, but it's generally such a minor difference, that it's not worth bothering with for me. Perhaps this would change with better speakers? I guess I'll find out someday.

[Dusty Chalk]

I've noticed the difference before, but it's generally such a minor difference, that it's not worth bothering with for me. Perhaps this would change with better speakers? I guess I'll find out someday.

He specifically asked in the context of headphones.

[CD44hi]

Irrespectivelly of the means ( i.e. speakers or cans):

-What is the audible effect of phase inversion?

-Is the same to invert phase at the source or pre-amp/headamp, as it is to flip a switch let say through the AA DDE stuff or HP1s switch or switching the speaker posts? In other words, is the audible effect of a phase inverting preamp, headamp, or source the same as to that of inverting phase at speakers, cans end?

I remember reading somewhere on H-F once that an audible switch on phase would lead to shift on sound image of 180 degrees.... I think it was Kevin Gilmore that mentioned this, but I am not 100% sure.

[Dusty Chalk]

-What is the audible effect of phase inversion?

Honestly, I don't know.

-Is the same to invert phase at the source or pre-amp/headamp, as it is to flip a switch let say through the AA DDE stuff or HP1s switch or switching the speaker posts? In other words, is the audible effect of a phase inverting preamp, headamp, or source the same as to that of inverting phase at speakers, cans end?

Yes. But there are only certain places and ways one can do it. You can do it in the DAC, because it is done in the digital realm. You can do it at the speakers -- but not if they're electrostatics -- because there is no "ground" per se. You can do it in the preamp, but only if the preamp lets you, you don't want to do it yourself between, e.g., the preamp and the power amp, or between the source and the pre, because they might be sharing a ground, etc. It's just a matter of swapping the + and the -, I.E. changing the phase of the angle 180 degrees.

[philodox]

Depending on the recording you can totally hear the difference of it being out of phase. Especially in the bass and soundstaging... that said, for most recordings it doesn't matter all that much.

[Post]

unrelated, but out of phase pickups on a Stratocaster makes for some badass quacking sounds.

[aerius]

Depending on the recording you can totally hear the difference of it being out of phase. Especially in the bass and soundstaging... that said, for most recordings it doesn't matter all that much.

On a related note, did you know that our K340's invert phase? That is, unless Larry reversed the phase on your pair when he did the mods, in which case it would now be in proper phase. Mine is reversed, which is great in theory since most of my recordings are also reversed according to this chart.

[philodox]

I think my brain just popped... that is weird. I guess I will just go on not bothering with it... too many inversions to calculate... phase unclear... *pop*

[aerius]

This is one of those cases where two wrongs makes a right.