XXII Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 Hello Head-case, As you can see, I am new here but I have a question on a vintage DAC that will probably be better answered here than at the other place. I recently came across someone local selling a Sonic Frontiers SFD-2 DAC (MK1) locally for a decent price (around USD$900). This DAC is around 15 years old and got glowing reviews from Stereophile when it was released: Stereophile: Sonic Frontiers SFD-2 D/A processor I was thinking of buying it tomorrow evening but I was wondering if anyone here knows any reason NOT to get it? Can anyone guess how it will compare with modern DACs?
grawk Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 I can't provide information for you, but welcome, good choice for a first post
Dusty Chalk Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 This DAC is around 15 years old ... I was thinking of buying it tomorrow evening but I was wondering if anyone here knows any reason NOT to get it? Can anyone guess how it will compare with modern DACs?It being 15 years old would be my main reason for not getting it. Also, the US$900. If it was only US$100-200, I'd say yes, go for it, but me personally, I'd rather spend money on something more modern. Heck, can't you get a used Bel Canto 2 for that kind of money? I think I'd spend it on that instead. Also, I don't think it'll do anything other than 16/44.1 -- if you end up doing computer audio, you may end up regretting it.
luvdunhill Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 It may be worthwhile to talk with Parts Connexion, as they still service these units and may have some upgrades and mods available if you're interested in putting some more money into this DAC down the line ..
deepak Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 IMO from owning the Bel Canto DAC2, there is nothing special about it. In fact it sounds pretty bad in the same vein as Benchmark DAC1.
foo_me Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 Wouldn't say age is the only factor at least in terms of sound quality. I just got the spectral sdr2000/sdr3000 and I think it's still one of the best out there for redbook even though I think it's probably at least 10 years old. I even preferred it over my emm labs se stack. There might be concerns about build, lifetime of the product so I'd also check to make sure it can be serviced or maybe even upgraded. Do miss sacd and getting somewhat interested in hirez playback so I might do something about that in the distant future, but at this point, with mostly everything i have still on CD, don't think that's that big of a deal. Think Icarium might know more about the sonic frontiers. He was saying that the sonic frontiers sfd-3? might be special, but not sure about sfd-2
Icarium Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 It's a decent DAC, but I'd probably only go for the mark 3 (At a good price) or the sfd-3 (More like 2-3k). Filburt would know more than me.
deepak Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 neither sounds bad, in any way shape or form. we've had this discussion before, i think. I am afraid I will have to challenge you to a game of Bacarat over this matter
Dusty Chalk Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 Yeah, I disagree that it sounds "pretty bad", but...whatever, it was just an example. In response to the OP, I'd pick something more contemporary for that kind of money.
Duggeh Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 I paid less than that for my DAS-R1, of broadly comparible vintage. However I regret I can offer you no sonic insight.
XXII Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Posted February 18, 2009 You guys are more negative than I thought you would be! I guess my aim is to find a DAC that's significantly better than my Havana (which is a NOS DAC) without spending a lot more money. It being 15 years old would be my main reason for not getting it. Also, the US$900. If it was only US$100-200, I'd say yes, go for it, but me personally, I'd rather spend money on something more modern. Heck, can't you get a used Bel Canto 2 for that kind of money? I think I'd spend it on that instead. Also, I don't think it'll do anything other than 16/44.1 -- if you end up doing computer audio, you may end up regretting it. The owner says that he had no time to use it so it's only been used for 100 hours (which I'm not sure I believe). Also, I'm not too worried about 16/44.1 since the Havana that I'm using now can only do redbook as well. It may be worthwhile to talk with Parts Connexion, as they still service these units and may have some upgrades and mods available if you're interested in putting some more money into this DAC down the line .. That's good to hear. Apparently, you can add a module to upgrade it to MKII. I'll check if they have this. It's a decent DAC, but I'd probably only go for the mark 3 (At a good price) or the sfd-3 (More like 2-3k). Filburt would know more than me. That's interesting. I couldn't find anywhere with a review of the MKIII so I'm not sure of the differences. Either way, they both presumably would be more expensive than the MKI and I'm not looking to spend a lot of money. I'll probably go get it tonight. Since the price is decent, I think I won't have a problem selling it on later if it's not to my taste. If people are interested, I can post some pics later.
Dusty Chalk Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 The owner says that he had no time to use it so it's only been used for 100 hours (which I'm not sure I believe). No, I've got no problem with vintage technology...other than the digital variety. The technology has moved forward on digital technology, that's my main beef with a 15-year-old DAC.
XXII Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Posted February 18, 2009 No, I've got no problem with vintage technology...other than the digital variety. The technology has moved forward on digital technology, that's my main beef with a 15-year-old DAC. That's true. So I guess the question is whether the technology has moved on far enough so that $900 for a 15 year old $5000 DAC is not worth it. Also, I'm using a NOS DAC now so it's not exactly like my current DAC is at the forefront of modern technology.
deepak Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 The Levinson 30.6 must be an approaching ten year old design, doesn't make it any less good today than it was ten years ago...
Guest sacd lover Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 That's true. So I guess the question is whether the technology has moved on far enough so that $900 for a 15 year old $5000 DAC is not worth it. Also, I'm using a NOS DAC now so it's not exactly like my current DAC is at the forefront of modern technology. You can do a lot better for $900, IMO. A friend just bought a new Denon 3930 for $899.
mulveling Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 IMO from owning the Bel Canto DAC2, there is nothing special about it. In fact it sounds pretty bad in the same vein as Benchmark DAC1. Have to agree - I had a DAC2 a few years ago and didn't notice anything special about its sound. Wouldn't pay the current used prices (~$650) for one. Found it to be roughly on par with a stock Denon DVD-2910, which are DIRT cheap now (saw one go for $140 recently).
Dusty Chalk Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 That's true. So I guess the question is whether the technology has moved on far enough so that $900 for a 15 year old $5000 DAC is not worth it. Also, I'm using a NOS DAC now so it's not exactly like my current DAC is at the forefront of modern technology.Yeah, I'd either spend $900 on something more recent and better, or a lot less on that much older technology.
Smeggy Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 $900 USD, That's a lot of hookers and beer in HK......
Icarium Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 Shrug.. what in digital has changed so much in 15 years? New formats? Opamps I'll give you but those can be swapped. I'm pretty sure this is fully discrete anyways. DAC chips haven't. There aren't many current production chips that can keep up with the Ultra Analog discrete ladder dac chips this uses for redbook. Digital filters? Yeah it'd be nice if this used the PMD100 but that is also an older out of production chip... Pacific Microsonics knew their shit even if they don't exist anymore (Bought out by Microsoft). I don't think analog output stages really have made many advances either.
Dusty Chalk Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) Hmm...ladder DAC chips...no digital filters...fully discrete... Alright, I'll change my stance, maybe this isn't such a bad idea. Back in the day, the Sonic Frontiers DAC (I don't know which one) was considered one of the best deals in digital hi-fi. Still, I'm not sure I'd be able to bring myself to do it. I like upsampling. Just for the record -- there is still a contingent of people who prefer a complete lack of digital filter, because of what it does to the phase of the signal. I've heard both (my ex still uses her ancient first CD player to this day), and it really doesn't sound that bad. There's artifacts, but you're so used to hearing the artifacts that most recent players have, that it's still kind of refreshing. Alright, here's my final advice: go with Dark Angel's way of doing things -- buy it for a price that, if you end up not liking it, you can sell it for with little to no financial loss on your part (ignoring where the market is going -- I.E. if you had to turn around and sell it today, you would only lose, say, US$100). You have to realize that when other people look at your listing, they'll probably be given similar advice, "...$900? I don't know, seems like a lot for out-dated technology..." Edited February 18, 2009 by Dusty Chalk
n_maher Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 Found it to be roughly on par with a stock Denon DVD-2910, which are DIRT cheap now (saw one go for $140 recently).The 2910 is one of the more disappointing listens that I've had. I found it to be roughly on part with a piece of crap and it's probably still a bad deal at $140.
mulveling Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 The 2910 is one of the more disappointing listens that I've had. I found it to be roughly on part with a piece of crap and it's probably still a bad deal at $140. Well, I wasn't a fan of the DAC2 I compared it directly to either, which was the much bigger disappointment because of its much higher cost (and also minus a transport, minus video circuitry, minus SACD/DVDA...). The 2910 had a very nice DVD video quality via HDMI, for its time IMO. Neither the 2910 nor DAC2 made it into regular source duty for me. I didn't mean to recommend the 2910 for 2ch audio, so much as to knock on the DAC2 Still that $140 caught my eye for some reason since I remember they were $600-700 when new, while the DAC2 inexplicably still commands fairly high prices used.
GPH Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 The 2910 is one of the more disappointing listens that I've had. I found it to be roughly on part with a piece of crap and it's probably still a bad deal at $140. Good to know, I almost picked one at 175$ two weeks ago. Seems like a fine solution for a transport though, but I decided to go against it because it doesn't meet me space constraints.
XXII Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Posted February 18, 2009 $900 USD, That's a lot of hookers and beer in HK...... I wouldn't know anything about that.. Alright, here's my final advice: go with Dark Angel's way of doing things -- buy it for a price that, if you end up not liking it, you can sell it for with little to no financial loss on your part (ignoring where the market is going -- I.E. if you had to turn around and sell it today, you would only lose, say, US$100). You have to realize that when other people look at your listing, they'll probably be given similar advice, "...$900? I don't know, seems like a lot for out-dated technology..." Great! There are actually one or two on Audiogon that are selling for around $1000 so I'm sure if I knock off $100 it should sell. And if anyone is worried I'll point them to Icarium's and your posts.. Thanks for all the advice. I can't wait to get off work now! Not exactly looking forward to lugging it through public transport though.
n_maher Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 Good to know, I almost picked one at 175$ two weeks ago. Seems like a fine solution for a transport though, but I decided to go against it because it doesn't meet me space constraints. Not to stray too far off the original topic but I would never use one for a transport either. It just seems to make sense to me to limit the amount of clutter and unnecessary crap in a transport and that makes just about any DVD player (short of the big guys like Esoteric) a poor candidate for a dedicated transport.
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