A Treatise on the TTVJ/307A

[penger]

But you only wanted to talk about power, not design...

[n_maher]

Comparing the cost of a speaker amp to a headphone amp is worthless. Is the 307A expensive? Yes, but you're paying for a hand built, limited production item much in the same way that you would expect to pay more for a Bugatti than you would for a VW.

[kelvinz]

But you only wanted to talk about power, not design...

If at any time any of you want to educate instead of throwing insults around I'm more than willing to listen

[aardvark baguette]

sweet Jesus.

[Voltron]

If at any time any of you want to educate instead of throwing insults around I'm more than willing to listen

Hold your head still, I think Reks has some education to throw at you.

[aardvark baguette]

Seriously, this is an epic amount of fail for just one thread.

[kelvinz]

Comparing the cost of a speaker amp to a headphone amp is worthless. Is the 307A expensive? Yes, but you're paying for a hand built, limited production item much in the same way that you would expect to pay more for a Bugatti than you would for a VW.

This is an analogy I do not get, what you're paying for in say a Bugatti Veyron is the amount of engineering that went into building its engine/chassis to create/handle the amount of power it makes.

However the 307a looks to apparently be built to only power headphones which from what I know require small amounts of power. Why is it more expensive than the SET speaker amplifiers that someone else mentioned?

[GPH]

If at any time any of you want to educate instead of throwing insults around I'm more than willing to listen

Nobody's here to feed you, there's a lot of stuff to read in books and on the internet on this particular subject. And I don't see anyone insulting you.

[aardvark baguette]

This is an analogy I do not get, what you're paying for in say a Bugatti Veyron is the amount of engineering that went into building its engine/chassis to create/handle the amount of power it makes.

However the 307a looks to apparently be built to only power headphones which from what I know require small amounts of power. Why is it more expensive than the SET speaker amplifiers that someone else mentioned?

But this amp too has much engineering/labor involved. You assume it is a simple design because the end result is 'just' a headphone amp. This amp is like the Bugatti of the headphone amp world.

[n_maher]

This is an analogy I do not get, what you're paying for in say a Bugatti Veyron is the amount of engineering that went into building its engine/chassis to create/handle the amount of power it makes.

Ok, how about my tractor costs as much as some cars, does that make it anything other than an expensive tractor? No, it does what it was designed to do exceptionally well and I don't expect it to be a car.

However the 307a looks to apparently be built to only power headphones which from what I know require small amounts of power. Why is it more expensive than the SET speaker amplifiers that someone else mentioned?

While headphones require less power they are also FAR less forgiving of noise. It also requires an entirely different design to deal with the varying impedance/load that headphones can present to the amplifier.

Look, if you think the 307A is expensive that's a fine and justifiable position to take. But to back that statement up with

I'm just pointing out the obvious that the TTVJ/307A puts out less power than a high end SPEAKER amplifier and costs just about the same.

is completely in appropriate. You're using power as the basis of your comparison. You should have stopped with "my bad".

[kelvinz]

Well since you all feel so strongly about it the next $500 I spend will be going towards travel to CanJam to hear it.

[n_maher]

Good plan.

[laxx]

Well since you all feel so strongly about it the next $500 I spend will be going towards travel to CanJam to hear it.

Proof please.

[kelvinz]

Proof please.

don't worry I'll be there ;P I'll book tickets/hotel later tonight it seems headfi is down and I can't view the event details.

[recstar24]

Kelvinz,

If the issue your holding is that it is too expensive for a headphone amp, that is fine as your opinion. For others, not necessarily so. $6000 to you and me is very different to someone else. The few owners who have the 307A, have already determined for themselves that they are willing to pay $6000 for an ultimate, true hi end performing amp that can play any dynamic can. Just for reflection, the Original Xana from Moth Audio was slight under $6000 and could only play into hi impedances. There have been people who felt comfortable (at the time) to commission Mikhail $5000-$10,000 for the hopes of having a superior product. What people do with their money is fine by me, I envy them because damn that 307a is the finest freaking thing I heard with the hp-1000's, balanced, that god willing if I had $6000 to make it rain I would.

The part of your argument that really doesn't make sense is comparing the headphone amp to the speaker amp. Yes you can get a really nice speaker amp for less than half of that, and for that price, your getting into the higher end of speaker amplification, but quality headphone amplification doesn't really share much with speaker amplification. The noise requirements of a headphone amp are much more demanding because you are dealing with transducers millimeters away at milliwatt sensitivities; therefore, it is my opinion that a headphone amp power supply needs to be about 10x stiffer with less noise and hash than a comparable speaker amp. This requires well thought out design, good iron, probably a choke in there, quality rectification, some of which is right up there, if not dwarfing, the quality of speaker amplification. Though a headphone amp does not need to output as much raw power as a speaker amp, the quality of that first "milliwatt" is so crucial that power output truly is meaningless in the headphone amp world. The amp itself needs to be designed to be able to operate as an effective buffer into a WIDE range of impedances, whereas a speaker amp can be dedicated to the standard 8 ohm. The headphone amp, on top of being able to handle all impedances (or a top of the line one), needs to also be able to supply the necessary voltage and current demands on hand, which are different for every single headphone. On top of that, some of the impedance variations across frequency for these cans can be dramatic, and we "expect" a headphone amp to handle all those dips and bumps, and be able to manage and produce a somewhat transparent and neutral pairing with whatever variety of headphones at your disposal.

In conclusion, it is my opinion that the TTVJ 307A does all those things listed above. I truly feel it is the 1st amp that I have heard that plays music equally as amazing with low and hi impedance, and believe that you could throw any damn can at it and the 307a will play beautiful music through it. It performed functionally perfect, with no hassle, hum, or noise. It revealed zero transformer colorations to my ears. It played music through a clear, open window of transparency that is unrivalled to what I have ever heard. For me, and maybe others, that is worth $6000. It is clear that it is not to you, and that is just fine, the world keeps on spinning last time I checked.

There are always compromises in gear - I have no idea how much money you would have to throw at something to make it sound "perfect", because money doesn't necessarily equate itself to performance. For what I look for in a headphone amp, the 307a is about as near to perfect as I have ever seen or heard, but like you said, it doesn't change the fact that $6000 is a lot of money, which I will probably never have to spend on something so luxurious (but we can always dream, no?)

[Knuckledragger]

[kelvinz]

Kelvinz,

If the issue your holding is that it is too expensive for a headphone amp, that is fine as your opinion. For others, not necessarily so. $6000 to you and me is very different to someone else. The few owners who have the 307A, have already determined for themselves that they are willing to pay $6000 for an ultimate, true hi end performing amp that can play any dynamic can. Just for reflection, the Original Xana from Moth Audio was slight under $6000 and could only play into hi impedances. There have been people who felt comfortable (at the time) to commission Mikhail $5000-$10,000 for the hopes of having a superior product. What people do with their money is fine by me, I envy them because damn that 307a is the finest freaking thing I heard with the hp-1000's, balanced, that god willing if I had $6000 to make it rain I would.

The part of your argument that really doesn't make sense is comparing the headphone amp to the speaker amp. Yes you can get a really nice speaker amp for less than half of that, and for that price, your getting into the higher end of speaker amplification, but quality headphone amplification doesn't really share much with speaker amplification. The noise requirements of a headphone amp are much more demanding because you are dealing with transducers millimeters away at milliwatt sensitivities; therefore, it is my opinion that a headphone amp power supply needs to be about 10x stiffer with less noise and hash than a comparable speaker amp. This requires well thought out design, good iron, probably a choke in there, quality rectification, some of which is right up there, if not dwarfing, the quality of speaker amplification. Though a headphone amp does not need to output as much raw power as a speaker amp, the quality of that first "milliwatt" is so crucial that power output truly is meaningless in the headphone amp world. The amp itself needs to be designed to be able to operate as an effective buffer into a WIDE range of impedances, whereas a speaker amp can be dedicated to the standard 8 ohm. The headphone amp, on top of being able to handle all impedances (or a top of the line one), needs to also be able to supply the necessary voltage and current demands on hand, which are different for every single headphone. On top of that, some of the impedance variations across frequency for these cans can be dramatic, and we "expect" a headphone amp to handle all those dips and bumps, and be able to manage and produce a somewhat transparent and neutral pairing with whatever variety of headphones at your disposal.

In conclusion, it is my opinion that the TTVJ 307A does all those things listed above. I truly feel it is the 1st amp that I have heard that plays music equally as amazing with low and hi impedance, and believe that you could throw any damn can at it and the 307a will play beautiful music through it. It performed functionally perfect, with no hassle, hum, or noise. It revealed zero transformer colorations to my ears. It played music through a clear, open window of transparency that is unrivalled to what I have ever heard. For me, and maybe others, that is worth $6000. It is clear that it is not to you, and that is just fine, the world keeps on spinning last time I checked.

There are always compromises in gear - I have no idea how much money you would have to throw at something to make it sound "perfect", because money doesn't necessarily equate itself to performance. For what I look for in a headphone amp, the 307a is about as near to perfect as I have ever seen or heard, but like you said, it doesn't change the fact that $6000 is a lot of money, which I will probably never have to spend on something so luxurious (but we can always dream, no?)

I hope that none of my posts had any implication that my opinions should be the basis of yours. As with most things I do understand that we all have an amount we are willing to spend to achieve our goals. Maybe $6000 will seem like a reasonable amount after I hear the amp at canjam.

Never really thought about how different headphone amplification is from speaker amplification I

[grawk]

Perhaps you'd be happier at headfi?

[kelvinz]

Perhaps you'd be happier at headfi?

variety is the spice of life

[grawk]

Ok, I'll rephrase. If you don't shape up, you're gonna get time to read more.

[recstar24]

I hope that none of my posts had any implication that my opinions should be the basis of yours. As with most things I do understand that we all have an amount we are willing to spend to achieve our goals. Maybe $6000 will seem like a reasonable amount after I hear the amp at canjam.

Never really thought about how different headphone amplification is from speaker amplification I

[pabbi1]

I asked Pete in all honesty if he thought he could do any better, for any amount of money, which he thought not.... different, but, not better. It is just a special amp, no bullshit, no superlatibves. This amp speaks for itself with absolute authority.

[Augsburger]

No worries. I definitely am not the definitive source on things, but I have been reading, listening, researching, and basically absorbing sound and knowledge during my tenure at HF and HC, and you start to grow with a set of gear experiences and knowledge that you are able to use.

Welcome to HC, keep on reading and I am sure you will learn a lot from the immense depth of knowledge that is present in this community. I know that I have.

Oh the irony. Your post just helped me learn a bit more about this hobby. Thanks Ryan, well done.

[4N6]

The price of admission for this amp, to me, was WELL worth it. Before gettng the 307A, I had a few pretty good amps, yet I always had "upgraditis" due to the fact that something elusive was missing in the sound. Well, nothing is missing in the sound of the 307A. Never a second of buyers remorse and no upgraditis (at least as far as headphone amps are concerned!). Just one fantastic amp.