Icarium Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 luvdunhill - 8 - 4Naamanf - 6 - 4looser101 - 4 - 2n_maher - 4 - 0Digipete - 8 - 4Pars - 6 - 2Fing - 4 - 4Asr - 0 - 4Stretch - 0 - 4PFKMan23 - 0 - 4Icarium - 4 - 4Dreadhead - 0 - 4 ok, here's what I'm thinking in terms of responsibility: luvdunhill - JFET / MOSFET matching and device procurement pars - boards / BJT matching looser101 - BJT matching Naamanf - Cases / heatsinks / mounting hardware / IO Boards (including jacks) Digipete - passive component procurement and matching n_maher - internal wiring procurement and distribution Icarium - toroid procurement and distribution ?? - power supply (sigma22) kitting <everyone else> - shilling and general "investment protection" I think the rough plan would be that all the boards and power supplies are built and tested. Cases would be speced out so that things are pretty much plug and play with no soldering required. The I/O board would contain PCB mount jacks and probably there would be a front and rear panel board that would be scored and could be broken out. Wires from each PCB would be pre-soldered by the builder/tester and then just connected to the IO boards. The boards would already be connected to the angled aluminum (done by the builder) (edit: maybe this is a bad idea, but this shouldn't be that hard for the end user to do as long as the devices could be protected in transit) and then this angled aluminum would just be screwed into the already tapped heat sinks. I'm not sure to what extent this is feasible, but sounds like a good idea to me. This way the cases would just be shipped once to the organizer and then a second time to the end-user who would just assemble things together. Comments? Might be time to organize the procurement/wealth distribution at this point. Looking at things it looks like there are 5 guys who are doing procurement. Nate brought up a good point with regards to paypal fees eating us alive if we don't plan it out somewhat. Perhaps before we start doing any ordering we should get get some decent quotes for the procuring and figure out how much money will need to move around in the end. I know we have the rough 1200-1500 figure, but the project is continuously evolving and it is safer for everybody involved if we have all this stuff hammered out first and will allow us to manage expectations better. I think money management and expectation management is going to be pretty key. P.S. I don't really know anything about transformers per se, but I was thinking for the toroids we have a standarized spec and people can either opt in for 1 or 2? Would that make sense? I'm going to be relying on Nate, provided he's willing, to basically let me know exactly what to order and I'll place the order when we are ready and then distribute.
luvdunhill Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Posted February 17, 2009 Perhaps before we start doing any ordering we should get get some decent quotes for the procuring and figure out how much money will need to move around in the end. I agree. However, it shouldn't be that hard. For example, if I order the semiconductors and everyone pays me for them, once ordered if my estimate is over, then I can just use the 90 day refund period within PayPal to return unused money. Is there any reason this sort of strategy won't work? I'm supposing you're worried about the case when you pay me for semiconductors, then I just turn around and pay you for the toroids? In this case, would it be feasible if those who were purchasing items just didn't pay until the end, after all parts were ordered and then of course the purchasers would be required to pony up some extra money for the other purchasers until things could get worked out?
n_maher Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 Relying on me for electronics advise is kind of like leaning on green tree for support. I'm happy to help where I can but I haven't looked at this project much and can't keep track of what you guys are looking at for a target. I think what needs to be ironed out before any ordering/paying/whatever goes on is a core set of components that everyone agrees will be part of the SE and Balanced packages.
Dusty Chalk Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 Is there any reason this sort of strategy won't work? It'll work, but it'll be more cost-effective if someone (perhaps one of the people who volunteered to help manage this project?) sits down and figures out exactly how much everyone is putting in and getting out, because some of them will cancel each other out, and that way the PayPal fees can get reduced.
Icarium Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 I agree. However, it shouldn't be that hard. For example, if I order the semiconductors and everyone pays me for them, once ordered if my estimate is over, then I can just use the 90 day refund period within PayPal to return unused money. Is there any reason this sort of strategy won't work? I'm supposing you're worried about the case when you pay me for semiconductors, then I just turn around and pay you for the toroids? In this case, would it be feasible if those who were purchasing items just didn't pay until the end, after all parts were ordered and then of course the purchasers would be required to pony up some extra money for the other purchasers until things could get worked out? No I'm not worried about that at all. I trust you I'm more worried about people starting to add together #s after the 3rd or 4th order and then wondering if they have enough to go all the way especially without realizing how long this project will probably take to complete. Yeah I think figuring out exactly what's going into boxes well help deal with that as well. I guess my main worry is stemming from better and cooler sounding ideas that I keep wanting and wondering if 1200-1500 remains accurate and will remain accurate 3-4 months down the road Nate's comment will help manage expectations there as well. If I am throwing in 1800 to 2250 (My cost + 50 percent of a builders cost) that's within budget, but if it starts pushing much past 3k then I will have to wonder myself if I can go through with things and its really best to kinda have a good idea of that kind of thing before we start doing orders to do a final reality check. Anyway I've been thinking about this for awhile and I didn't want to be the dirty bastard who polluted this awesome effort/opportunity with money talk.. but I feel like it's going to save heartbreak further down the road. That being said the paypal refunding idea is kinda brilliant I didn't think of that. But still I'm thinking it would be cool if we just kinda hand everyone a cost which is balanced against any procurement costs and then they figure out exactly how the subset of people they owe money to will be (builder perhaps.. other procurers) and then they pay that person and we try and minimize the size of that subset. (Similar to Dusty Chalk's suggestion) Of course financially this may not be doable for some procurers... but I still think we can work around the above described framework.
luvdunhill Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Posted February 17, 2009 excellent thoughts guys. I guess we're still waiting on firm numbers. I can live with that.
Pars Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 I think we need a level of interest check among the various peeps here, per vvs' post. It seems there is a wide range of expectations as to what this is and what it will include, running the gamut from j4cbo' post on the 13th to I guess my expectation (basically a pair of boards, stuffed optional). I can certainly understand and support the concept of a group build to allow different types and levels of involvement, differentiating this from a simple group buy for some PCBs as the previous Dynahi/Dynalo, etc. activities have been. I also sense that I am probably in the minority in terms of expectation?
Icarium Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 Yeah I'm pretty much limited by money and what builders are willing to do. I think that's probably the limiting reagent for everybody involved. I propose we keep it pretty basic with just stuffed boards and then the extras if people are interested like chassis elements.. more boards etc. Luvdunhill's original idea of something that can be assembled by the end user rather than requiring builders to put the thing together is probably the most realistic goal anyways. If there are builders that are interested in either stuffing some of the more optional boards and frills or even building the whole thing perhaps they can express interest and individuals can work something out with them. If a majority is interested in something and there are builders to match then we can keep it in the thread. I mean sure as a non builder it would be awesome to just hand some dudes some money and get a fully built out ultra badass custom dynafet... but I don't think that is realistic at all and this is probably something we really need to manage expectations on. So yeah probably best to keep it basic and manageable right now. Any frills group buys should still go down if it makes sense like the sowter transformers and whatever crazy controller type stuff that i don't even really understand but want 4 of.
vvs_75 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 Since builder according to the earlier posts will be partially covered by the other side, another idea is to break this project in to camps: (person who asked to build his amp + builder). Then each camp can work out the details about in what configuration they want their amps and they provide info what and how many boards and parts they need for the build, thus how much money each camp expect to invest. And who just want boards and other parts and will do their amps without help, the person will remain in his own camp and invest accordingly. Just a though.
Icarium Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 Yeah. It's just a question of if the number of builders willing to go the whole hog meshes with the number of people interested
vvs_75 Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 Yeah. It's just a question of if the number of builders willing to go the whole hog meshes with the number of people interested Well, we can populate all the boards we need for everybody and distribute them, but to finish the amp is a lot more than that. So a lot will depend on the builder since he will be buying the parts that won't require group buys. So I thought is not a bad idea if we could do it right. Or we could keep very simple and run group buy for each part separately. Boards, trafos, semiconductors, cases etc.
Icarium Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 Nod. I was referencing luvdunhills initial suggestion of: "I think the rough plan would be that all the boards and power supplies are built and tested. Cases would be speced out so that things are pretty much plug and play with no soldering required. The I/O board would contain PCB mount jacks and probably there would be a front and rear panel board that would be scored and could be broken out. Wires from each PCB would be pre-soldered by the builder/tester and then just connected to the IO boards. The boards would already be connected to the angled aluminum (done by the builder) (edit: maybe this is a bad idea, but this shouldn't be that hard for the end user to do as long as the devices could be protected in transit) and then this angled aluminum would just be screwed into the already tapped heat sinks. I'm not sure to what extent this is feasible, but sounds like a good idea to me. This way the cases would just be shipped once to the organizer and then a second time to the end-user who would just assemble things together." This makes it sound like a significantly simpler process than the usual fitting boards/heatsinks to chassis business I'd love to work with a builder though generally if possible I just don't know if people have the time and energy. Would you like to partner up with me ? I can help subsidize the cost of your parts.
vvs_75 Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 Would you like to partner up with me ? I can help subsidize the cost of your parts. I wish I could do it. But thanks for the offer anyway.
DigiPete Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 (Just my opinion on how this ought to go) I agree with Pars. I would keep this group buy/build to only amp boards and psu boards (with parts), and a separate enclosure buy. Since in nature this is really a DIY project, those who cannot assemble an amp from stuffed boards, should really consider if this is the right project for them. I know I am not planning to build any amps for anyone but myself, but I could stuff several boards for others and have volunteered to do so. Not sure if the other 'builders' feel the same way, or if they are willing to do more than stuff boards. I know my time is limited, and I could not take the responsibility to build a whole amp for someone, and deal with the types of issues that a 'for hire' builder is willing to deal with. Considering he hopes to make a modest profit, dealing with those issues is part of the game when operating a small business. All stuff to consider, as expectations management needs to be put into place here for non-DIYers, as well as defining what it is we are planning to buy.
Smeggy Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 Agreed. I'd hate to put that much on the shoulders of someone, as it invariably ends up being a longer than expected and painful experience, especially as a volunteer. I do the same thing on headphones as a free thing for people and it always takes me longer than I think, costs me more than I imagine in materials and consumables and the pressure of juggling work, wife, rest time and trying to get all these headphones made can be stressful.
Fing Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 Unfortunately the total build price is too steep for me, so I'll have to remove my name from the list. Apologies & good luck!
Icarium Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 (Just my opinion on how this ought to go) I agree with Pars. I would keep this group buy/build to only amp boards and psu boards (with parts), and a separate enclosure buy. Since in nature this is really a DIY project, those who cannot assemble an amp from stuffed boards, should really consider if this is the right project for them. I know I am not planning to build any amps for anyone but myself, but I could stuff several boards for others and have volunteered to do so. Not sure if the other 'builders' feel the same way, or if they are willing to do more than stuff boards. I know my time is limited, and I could not take the responsibility to build a whole amp for someone, and deal with the types of issues that a 'for hire' builder is willing to deal with. Considering he hopes to make a modest profit, dealing with those issues is part of the game when operating a small business. All stuff to consider, as expectations management needs to be put into place here for non-DIYers, as well as defining what it is we are planning to buy. I expect pretty much everyone is in your boat with regards to building. It is understandable. But it definitely needs to be made explicitly clear. I do hope we can keep with luvdunhill's original vision which makes assembly to chassis possible for an unskilled end user. If that simply isn't possible then I will call upon local resources to get it done (Probably my family). So yeah I think I have pretty realistic expectations at this point and fully plan to stay in and see this through.. all the way. I'm really sorry if I cast a downer on this effort :/
Asr Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 If this is going to be a group buy of only stuffed PCBs and potentially enclosures too, I guess I might as well retract. I was originally hoping to commission someone to build a finished amp, oh well. If it's not feasible I understand. I have no DIY skill of my own unfortunately - money is the only leverage I have.
Pars Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 I was under the impression that non-DIYers could still get an amp built, as that was one of the stated goals on the first page? I had assumed that whoever is building the boards would test them, etc. and these woud be provided ready to go. I also assumed that a full case and all other parts would be available, including FPE panels, etc. so that the DIYer could construct the amp without having to deal with all of the chassis work, etc.? Basically put the amp together with a minimum of wiring to do?
n_maher Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 I will freely admit that I am not up for chassis work, even if FPE panels are provided. There's still a lot left to do not to mention the liability of the whole thing (purely from a time standpoint). Sorry if that negates my usefulness.
vvs_75 Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 If this is going to be a group buy of only stuffed PCBs and potentially enclosures too, I guess I might as well retract. I was originally hoping to commission someone to build a finished amp, oh well. If it's not feasible I understand. I have no DIY skill of my own unfortunately - money is the only leverage I have. If you have no problems with funds I would (if I were you) ordered boards, parts, case etc. Assuming that you willing to wait longer, I think you won't be left alone sitting on your couch and stare at the pile of parts. When everybody finishes their amps somebody sure will help you to put the amp together. It's not like we are going to build a hundred of DynoFets? They can be counted on two hands? my 2c.
DigiPete Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 Again, some decisions need to be made, at some point, about baseline configuration, and options, as well as what labor options are available for the non-DIYer. There have been a lot of ideas thrown out, some really elaborate ones, and that's good. But there should be no confusion, that those are just ideas. I don't think Luvdunhill has made any decisions on what 'options' will actually be offered for group-buy at this point, nor has any pricing been set for those options, nor has anybody been queried on which options they actually wish to sign up for. I think until the above are firmed up, no one should hastily pull out, as nothing is set, yet.
Torpedo Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 It's not very much what I can comment or help since my boards would be built by PICaudio and somehow my participation is linked to his willing to stick into the project. I believe the built amp would be worth those 1300-1500 bucks, probably more considering the prices commercial products carry. Still a lot of money and we'd have to clear up a few things yet. Maybe we'd need to know how many of us are still in it, and if most people want to build their boards and PS or having them built by someone else but mounting them into a chassis, or even if some prefer having the whole thing built by other person. Also if we'd have the same enclosure for all to make cost lower (which maybe wouldn't be that interesting for the ones of us living outside the US), hence if everyone wants a single chassis amp or prefer a two chassis one. It also would be good knowing if everyone will use S22 power supplies or someone is willing to build the original PS Kevin designed for the Dynafet. Once we know all this and have a recount of all variables we'd see if it's still feasible.
Icarium Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 I was under the impression that non-DIYers could still get an amp built, as that was one of the stated goals on the first page? I had assumed that whoever is building the boards would test them, etc. and these woud be provided ready to go. I also assumed that a full case and all other parts would be available, including FPE panels, etc. so that the DIYer could construct the amp without having to deal with all of the chassis work, etc.? Basically put the amp together with a minimum of wiring to do? Yeah this is what I'm angling towards as well. If things could still be designed (I think the main thing is where holes are drilled in the chassis and where holes are drilled in the boards) to fit this spec.. then I think it won't be a 100 percent a lost cause for non-DIYers. If it can be designed in a way where you simply screw in some boards and connect some wires (This will probably require soldering)... then either I can figure out how to do this myself or have a family member do it. But this would require buy in from the group and someone willing to do the chassis leg work with figuring out where to generate holes and to have those holes generated. If this is too much work for anybody to assume then I personally will be happy and satisfied with populated boards and whatever other group buys happen. I will probably have my brother do the machining on the chassis. Also I think the relationship you have with PICAudio is great. If I didn't live in a different continent I would probably be pming him right now to try and arrange a similar relationship. Another option is maybe we can approach some of the semi-pro guys more local to us to do a similar thing as PICAudio... like MisterX or Thrice? Still though there are no guarantees and I think a non-DIYer should go into this with the knowledge that there is a risk that you will end up with just populated boards and some other parts unless they secure someone to help them with the rest. Anyway... if we stick with the luvdunhill vision though of something that might be assembled even by a non DIYer that is willing to spend some effort (Like 5x of putting together a PC) then shrug... that's $$$$$.
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