Apogee Mini-DAC HP out vs Headfive via XLR->RCA

[oogabooga]

I've been reading about and trying out different ways to drive my HD600s using an Apogee Mini-DAC, from using the standard HP out, to driving cans via the balanced XLRs, to using the XLR --> RCA to my Headfive (still saving up to buy a balanced amp).

When I drove my HD600s directly from the balanced XLRs I found the music "flat", although the L/R separation was notably better, especially in a few drum 'n bass tracks (much punchier), and has given me a "taste" of the balanced sound (the first one's always free)... However, this flatness rules out driving the HD600s direct from the XLRs.

So, here's the question - I've been comparing the XLR --> Headfive with the HP out on the Mini-DAC - and I've found little, if any difference. If pressed, I'd say the Headfive seems to have more of a 'three blobs' soundstage while the Mini-DAC HP out is better. In contrast, I've read a few opinions suggesting that XLR --> RCA is much better than the HP out. Am I missing something, or is the Headfive just not any better than the Mini-DAC's (already good, IMO) HP out?

Thanks,

Sameer

[Beefy]

My first headphone amp was an Arietta, which is a slightly improved/refined Headfive. While it was a little better then my integrated amp's internal headphone out, it could not realistically compete with any of my DIY offerings, including an M3 or Millett Hybrid Max.

If you want to drive those HD600 to their full capacity, I suspect you will need to invest in something a bit more powerful.

[Smeggy]

Yeah, I gotta get me an M3 one of these days, or finally build a SS.

[oogabooga]

SS?

I was toying last night with the idea of building a Balanced M^3 or Mini32 - the Mini32 is probably easier on the wallet. Do any of the DIYers here care to comment if either of these two is suitable for a first DIY project?

[grawk]

SS = starving student.

Best bet is to start with something easier than a balanced amp, then give it to a friend, then tackle the bigger projects. I can say I love the sound of my balanced m3

[HeadphoneAddict]

I've been reading about and trying out different ways to drive my HD600s using an Apogee Mini-DAC, from using the standard HP out, to driving cans via the balanced XLRs, to using the XLR --> RCA to my Headfive (still saving up to buy a balanced amp).

When I drove my HD600s directly from the balanced XLRs I found the music "flat", although the L/R separation was notably better, especially in a few drum 'n bass tracks (much punchier), and has given me a "taste" of the balanced sound (the first one's always free)... However, this flatness rules out driving the HD600s direct from the XLRs.

So, here's the question - I've been comparing the XLR --> Headfive with the HP out on the Mini-DAC - and I've found little, if any difference. If pressed, I'd say the Headfive seems to have more of a 'three blobs' soundstage while the Mini-DAC HP out is better. In contrast, I've read a few opinions suggesting that XLR --> RCA is much better than the HP out. Am I missing something, or is the Headfive just not any better than the Mini-DAC's (already good, IMO) HP out?

Thanks,

Sameer

I agree with your findings driving HD600 directly from the XLR. I also agree with your findings of the Apogee headphone out sounding better than the headfive (I have all of the above here, been there done that). The XLR > RCA > nice amp will sound better than headphone out if you get a good enough amp for the job.

Here is where I will get jumped on, and I almost wasn't going to post this part, but I want to help. I'm just gonna pull some "percent better" numbers out of the air here, because I have no way to measure them. Out of the amps I have tried, the lowest price upgrade is the Grahm Slee NOVO but it is only maybe 5% better, maybe 10% with the Sigma 11 PSU added (smoother and more powerful and brighter, soundstage no improvement). Next up would be my Head-direct EF1 which is about 10-15% better with stock tube and opamp, being warmer richer and fuller sounding with more power and smoother sounding, but the EF1 soundstage is just about the same or slightly narrower than headphone out of the Apogee. The Dark Voice 336 was not an upgrade, nor is my Headfive, although they are decent sounding.

Then there is the Woo WA6 which is a nice step up - a stock WA6 at Luminette's last November was more spacious and refined and maybe 20% better than Apogee headphone out. At the same meet my WA6 maxed with PDPS and Sophia rectifier was about 30% better than Apogee headphone out and was more refined with clearer treble and more micro-detail, and slightly more expansive soundstage than the stock WA6. On about the same level as maxed WA6 with PDPS and Sophia rectifier is plaidplatypus's loaner Gilmore Reference Headphone Amp which is better than WA6 with Denon and Edition 9 but not as good with HD600 and RS-1. Then there is my 2008 Single Power Square Wave XL with Blackgates in balanced mode, but I am not going to discuss that one here (moratorium). There are times when I like the WA6 better, especially for it's warmth and richness and punch with Grados.

PS: I think the SS is pretty close to the same as Apogee headphone out, except with HD600 it is better.

[Spiug31]

HeadphoneAddict have you happened to hear a beta22 (balanced or single ended) fed from an apogee mini-dac ?

[oogabooga]

Thanks Larry - that's quite a lot of info! Out of curiosity, have you tried the Mini-DAC with an M^3? I've not heard one myself.

Although your numbers are "out of the air", they're helpful in that I'd want something "100% better" than the HP out before I spend any more money. I'm thinking balanced, and I'm thinking after I finish grad school and get a job.

[grawk]

The apogee minidac into my balanced m3 was very very nice. Not the best ever, but pretty darn good. I was never all that impressed by the headphone out on it. It was servicable in a pinch.

[jp11801]

Look if you want to upgrade going with a Head Direct EF1 or a Novo is not a real improvement save your $$ until you can buy a real improvement.

I may be in the minority on this but I thought the duet was better than the micro from a HP out and DAC standpoint.

Edited January 16, 2009 by jp11801

[HeadphoneAddict]

HeadphoneAddict have you happened to hear a beta22 (balanced or single ended) fed from an apogee mini-dac ?

No I haven't, but I would like to try a balanced Beta22. And the beta22 speaker outputs to drive my Stax SRD-7 Pro and O2 Mk2 would be nice to try too. One amp to rule them all.

Thanks Larry - that's quite a lot of info! Out of curiosity, have you tried the Mini-DAC with an M^3? I've not heard one myself.

Although your numbers are "out of the air", they're helpful in that I'd want something "100% better" than the HP out before I spend any more money. I'm thinking balanced, and I'm thinking after I finish grad school and get a job.

Yes, I heard Naamanf's M^3 with separate PSU out of the Mini-DAC and it was very nice, and was similar to the WA6, except with Edition 9 where it was much better because the PDPS mod and Sophia hadn't been done yet (was using an Amperex Bugle Boy GZ34 which is not as good as the Sophia).

I've not heard an amp that is 100% better than the Apogee headphone out, but to me 30-40% better is a significant upgrade, especially when the old saying goes "spend 10x more for that last 10%". It also depends on the headphones, because while the WA6 maxed with blah blah blah mods is 30% better with most of my cans which are low impedance (grado, denon, ultrasone), it may be as much as 50% better with the HD600 and sounds close to a balanced single power with HD600 (which was better than a Headroom Balanced Desktop out of a Meridian CDP).

Look if you want to upgrade going with a Head Direct EF1 or a Novo is not a real improvement save your $$ until you can buy a real improvement.

I may be in the minority on this but I thought the duet was better than the micro from a HP out and DAC standpoint.

That's basically what I'm saying, the EF1 and NOVO are fairly close but slightly better than the Apogee headphone out. The WA6 maxed with PDPS and Sophia, or Zana Deux, or Gilmore Reference, or Melos SHA Gold are all amps that I have heard that are a more noticable upgrade over the Apogee and worth getting. Based on what I heard at the Colorado head-fi meet in July, the Headroom Balanced Desktop is another nice amp that is a notch above and not too similar to the Apogee headphone out. Interestingly, my 2008 Square Wave XL is the ONLY Single Power amp I liked at the whole meet. The ES-1 was okay, but I liked the GES better, and the Transparency sounded like crap.

As for the DAC, do you mean mini-DAC when you said micro? Blutarsky and I spent a bit of time comparing the Duet and mini-DAC HP out and line out, and with the stock Apogee PSU they were extremely similar which a slight nod to the mini-DAC for a miniscule bit of extra weight and presence (like 1-2% better). This mini-DAC seems a little smoother with the Sigma11 n_maher built for it (was Iron_Dreamers) and Iron_Dreamer swore by the Sigma11. I really like that I can connect my Macbook via USB, my DLO Homedock HD via optical and my CDP via Coax and switch between three sources, and use it on a PC if I need to, which the Duet can't do.

The Duet is still probably the best bang for the buck for computer driven DAC, with the Stello DA100 being more expensive for a similar sound but more flexibility. I love finding great sound at good prices.

[jp11801]

yes HPA I meant mini and yes I found the duet better than it from both a dac and headphone out perspective

[HeadphoneAddict]

yes HPA I meant mini and yes I found the duet better than it from both a dac and headphone out perspective

Blutarsky and I used an HP-1000 and APS cabled D2000 via headphone out, and HE60/HEV70 through the DAC for our testing and findings (and spent hours listening). Are you using an upgraded Duet breakout cable or something, because we were too. I love the Duet, but I can't say it is better than the Mini-DAC - equal possibly, better no, especially when you add the N_Maher built Sigma11 PSU on the mini-DAC.

Theoretically some say the Sigma11 shouldn't make a difference because the Apogee cranks up the AC power to something like 750Mhz inside the unit to get all noise outside the audible range, and uses internal power regulators for the DC. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

Regardless, there are times when the mini-DAC is the better option over Duet, like for feeding it from a CD or DVD or SACD player or other sources than a Mac, like a PC. When I get my new aluminum Macbook the Duet will not be an option at all, since Apple dropped firewire, but my Pico and Apogee mini-DAC will keep working with it (and HR Micro DAC, and others). I was going to buy Blutarsky's Duet until Apple dropped the ball, since he replaced it with a Stello DA100 for the extra inputs and USB.

[oogabooga]

Theoretically some say the Sigma11 shouldn't make a difference because the Apogee cranks up the AC power to something like 750Mhz inside the unit to get all noise outside the audible range, and uses internal power regulators for the DC. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

I'd read that as well from Apogee's documentation, and I'm still using the "stock" wallwart and don't have any plans to improve on it ATM. (I quote stock b/c I don't think it's even the actual stock wallwart - I bought the Mini-DAC open box and it had obviously been well, well used). Have you heard a difference? IIRC you use/d a Sigma 11 with your Mini-DAC?

[Spiug31]

If I stop powering my mini-dac from the walwart and instead power it solely with sla batteries connected through a capacitor bank, this results in removal of the previous noise floor.

That my wallwart is fed from the same power strip as my pc increases the amount of noise present anyway, hence my preference for the battery. With heinsight I think a sigma11 may have been a more cost effective and practical option than battery + capacitor bank. I haven`t heard a sigma11 yet but doubt I`ll change anything until I change source.

[oogabooga]

If I stop powering my mini-dac from the walwart and instead power it solely with sla batteries connected through a capacitor bank, this results in removal of the previous noise floor.

Re-he-heally?? Thanks for the insights, Spiug! Is this using the HP out of the MiniDAC or via a dedicated amp?

[Spiug31]

pc --usb--> mini-dac -> L-4E5C recabled HD650 fed via the 1/4"

[Spiug31]

n.b. using a dedicated power socket to power the mini-dac rather than powering it from the same power strip as my pc noticably reduces noise floor. Here are the result when using a dedicated wall socket.

comparing with to without cap bank:

dedicated socket -> supplied wallwart -> capacitor bank -> mini-dac

vs

dedicated socket -> supplied wallwart -> mini-dac

without the capacitor bank the sound is thinner and the base is noticably not as deep or fluid.

comparing through capacitor bank:

dedicated socket -> supplied wallwart -> capacitor bank -> mini-dac

dedicated socket -> supplied wallwart + sla -> capacitor bank -> mini-dac

sla -> capacitor bank -> mini-dac

between "sla alone" and "wallwart + sla" there is very little differance, possibly a bit more snap and more forced sound exhibited by "wallwart + sla" but otherwise nothing much.

"wallwart" operating alone has a notably drier sound than "wallwart + sla" or "sla alone"

even if powering the "wallwart + sla" from a clean mains socket I prefer the sound of the mini-dac when run "sla alone".

sla -> capacitor bank -> mini-dac

my capacitor bank is 10 x 100uF blackgate caps and it was built for me.

[HeadphoneAddict]

n.b. using a dedicated power socket to power the mini-dac rather than powering it from the same power strip as my pc noticably reduces noise floor. Here are the result when using a dedicated wall socket.

comparing with to without cap bank:

dedicated socket -> supplied wallwart -> capacitor bank -> mini-dac

vs

dedicated socket -> supplied wallwart -> mini-dac

without the capacitor bank the sound is thinner and the base is noticably not as deep or fluid.

comparing through capacitor bank:

dedicated socket -> supplied wallwart -> capacitor bank -> mini-dac

dedicated socket -> supplied wallwart + sla -> capacitor bank -> mini-dac

sla -> capacitor bank -> mini-dac

between "sla alone" and "wallwart + sla" there is very little differance, possibly a bit more snap and more forced sound exhibited by "wallwart + sla" but otherwise nothing much.

"wallwart" operating alone has a notably drier sound than "wallwart + sla" or "sla alone"

even if powering the "wallwart + sla" from a clean mains socket I prefer the sound of the mini-dac when run "sla alone".

sla -> capacitor bank -> mini-dac

my capacitor bank is 10 x 100uF blackgate caps and it was built for me.

That is similar to my findings with the Sigma 11.

[oogabooga]

Thanks for all the details, Spuig.

Unfortunately a dedicated mains socket is not an option for me - not enough available in my place. The capacitor bank looks quite interesting - perhaps if I used some good (but not BlackGate good) caps I could build one for less than the $52 Newark wants for the Elpac wallwart.