postjack Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 Good Morning Team! So I've decided 2009 is the year of new speaker amplification. I have no intentions of upgrading my vinyl rig until the distant future, and I'm done with digital sources indefinitely. My speakers are Quad 22Ls, and my current amp is the Cambridge Audio 840A integrated. When I was posting of my out of control bass woes over at Audio Asylum, at least one guy who I've exchanged emails with before said the 840A might be the problem, and that I should look to other amps. Well I don't have bass problems anymore since I moved the speakers into a new room, but I certainly could appreciate some greater control and heft in the bottom end. My issue here is that I have no experience with anything amplifying my speakers other then the 840A, and I want to hear about your experiences with different speaker amplification with your speakers. In other words, the classic "how much of a difference does it make" question. Now when it comes to headphones, I have been through quite a number of headphone amps, and found them to make a good bit of difference, mainly with the HD650, and mainly in the bass region. But what should I expect from changing amps with speakers? Then there is the question of what amp, and basically I have two current options: the Quad 909/99 Pre combo, or the D-Sonic Stereo power and some undetermined inexpensive pre (maybe the 99). The attraction of the 909/99 is that I would have a complete Quad system, which would be neat as hell, and I like that the 99 has an MM/MC phono and interesting tone controls. Really going "all Quad" is something I've always wanted to do, so I'm strongly drawn towards this option. The downside is that the power is only about 20 more watts then I'm currently getting with the 840A, but it is a different design and I understand watts aren't everything. Having said that, the D-Sonics put out a shit ton of power, 500 watts into 8ohms, and this is their attraction. Basically, they are upgrade proof, and I have yet to hear a truly negative thing about them from reviewers, while sometimes the 909 gets panned for doing the midrange very well while neglecting the frequency extremes. Price wise, the 99/909 is a very good deal, with prices ranging from $1300-1600. Underwood Hi-Fi can even do them brand new for just under $2000. The D-Sonics are also an amazing value at $1575 new with a three year warranty, but then I'd have to snag a pre on top of that, so it would come out a bit more expensive. I'm not planning on making a purchase soon, just sometime in 2009. Looking for any opinions or feelings about the above amps and speaker amplification in general.
Duggeh Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 If the 99/909 option (I'd want that myself) is making you hesitate because you want a higher power option theres always the 99/909-909 option. The 909 monoblocks output 300watts into 8 ohms but were discontinued last year. I've seen several sets pop up on ebay uk though.
postjack Posted January 10, 2009 Author Report Posted January 10, 2009 If the 99/909 option (I'd want that myself) is making you hesitate because you want a higher power option theres always the 99/909-909 option. The 909 monoblocks output 300watts into 8 ohms but were discontinued last year. I've seen several sets pop up on ebay uk though. Right on, I've heard about the 909 monoblocks, of course that could up my price considerably. I guess I'm not sure how much power I really need. Honestly the 840A's 120watts into 8ohms (Quads are 6 ohms so they are getting a bit more then that) sounds great, if it didn't I wouldn't have kept it for so long. Which is why I find myself asking how much of a difference more power or different amplification would make.
Dusty Chalk Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 Be reminded that the 22L's are 4 ohm speakers. I seem to vaguely remember seeing the impedance graph as really looking like 5. Is the Quad even rated into 4 ohms? The Cambridge Audio says it is. The Quad looks beefy, so I suspect it's not a problem. So yeah, properly driving them would be a good idea. Ramping up a notch on my Dynaudios made a world of difference -- they went from "audible" to "singing". In my case, it was actually the tweeters, but that's specific to the Dynaudio Esotar 2 (and others, I'm sure, but not tweeters in general). The bass certainly tightened up as well. I went from an Jolida integrated to a massive, bone-crushing Musical Fidelity A300^CR. Having hundreds of watts on call is definitely going to improve, but I still think that room treatments is what you really need. That's probably going to overshadow any improvements that greater amplification is going to have.
Duggeh Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 Even if you can't get ahold of the 909 monos, they're just internally bridged 909s. You could get a 909, then sometime down the line, get a second 909 and have the pair modded into the monoblocks. The process would probably be slightly more involved than whats done with the old 405 though. As for ratings, the 909 should be stable into any non-bonkers load. Quad designed all their amps to be stable into their electrostatic speakers and the 909 is the 2nd refinement of the 606 design.
postjack Posted January 10, 2009 Author Report Posted January 10, 2009 (edited) Be reminded that the 22L's are 4 ohm speakers. The 22L says the nominal impedance is 6 ohms, but I get the idea. The 909 manual only has it rated into 8 ohms (140 watts). Thanks for your amplification impressions, just the kind of stuff I was looking for. EDIT: the 909 manual also says it is stable unconditionally with any load or input. Even if you can't get ahold of the 909 monos, they're just internally bridged 909s. You could get a 909, then sometime down the line, get a second 909 and have the pair modded into the monoblocks. The process would probably be slightly more involved than whats done with the old 405 though. As for ratings, the 909 should be stable into any non-bonkers load. Quad designed all their amps to be stable into their electrostatic speakers and the 909 is the 2nd refinement of the 606 design. neat, the buying one 909 now with the possibility of getting another one later is a good idea. Edited January 10, 2009 by postjack
Torpedo Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 What I find most difficult in your case is determining if the bass issues are the only concern you eventually might wish to take care of. Were it the only point, therefore it's important knowing if those problems are just a matter of lack of power, room integration -which comprises speaker placement and room acoustic treatments-, damping factor, speakers' character, personal preference or even are related to specific recordings. I suppose the sensible way to face this is trying to measure your room-speakers' response, but that's difficult and needs some specific gear and skills. You might try to place the speakers in different places into your room to see if you can getter a more satisfying bass, than assessing if there are other issues in the sound which aren't of your liking. I'd try any of those before spending bucks blindly on new amplifiers, however I've gone that route before to learn things the hard expensive way So, were you to get an integrated amp to grab your speakers from their bottom, maybe a good and yet affordable recommendation would be getting a used Krell 300i or 300iL, even a 500i. Those aren't expensive nowadays and were that not the solution to your problems, they can be sold again easily without much loss. Maybe it's not a final solution, but you might learn a few things by trying it.
TheSloth Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 There might be price breaks on the 99 series relatively soon with the supposedly imminent release of the QUAD platinum electronics. They aren't replacing the 99 series - they'll be in a higher price bracket, but there still might be a drop in 99 series prices. Edit: 909 gives 250W/4Ω
Duggeh Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 Where'd you read about that? The 99 series has been around for several years now, and they finally offered a black finish for them last year, but Quad has historically always had long periods between product refreshes. It'll be interesting to see these platinum series things if they're for real. SACD perhaps?
postjack Posted January 10, 2009 Author Report Posted January 10, 2009 Where'd you read about that? The 99 series has been around for several years now, and they finally offered a black finish for them last year, but Quad has historically always had long periods between product refreshes. It'll be interesting to see these platinum series things if they're for real. SACD perhaps? Found this blurb from a year ago: Stereophile: Quad Goes Platinum Looks sharp.
tyrion Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 I just read a Stereo Times article on the 909 and it says that the emphasis is on the mids. It seems to me that if you are looking for deeper, more controlled bass then these may not be the way to go. I don't anything about them beyond the review I just read. It does say they are rated at 250w at 4 ohms. I'm giving McCormack a try based upon Jp and Voltron's suggestion. There is a McCormack dna-.05 deluxe and .1 deluxe on Audiogon. I think the .05 is 125 into 8 ohms, not sure about 4 but I do believe it's rated for 4 ohms. I would say it's a minimum of 200 watts. I was also looking into the Odyssey amps.
tyrion Posted January 10, 2009 Report Posted January 10, 2009 AudiogoN ForSale: Mccormack DNA 0.5 I think I would jump all over this if I didn't have Jp's amp on the way.
postjack Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Posted January 12, 2009 I should probably re-emphasize that I'm pretty darn happy with the bass since I moved the speakers into the den. Not only is the room bigger, but its filled with "natural" room treatments, things like couches which double as a place to sit. Plus I was actually able to have three of my friends over the other day to listen to tunes, and we all sat comfortably. Really the whole desire for a new speaker amp thing is just upgrading for the sake of upgrading, wanting to eence that much more performance out of my system. Thanks to all for your input.
Dusty Chalk Posted January 12, 2009 Report Posted January 12, 2009 Really the whole desire for a new speaker amp thing is just upgrading for the sake of upgrading, wanting to eence that much more performance out of my system.Oh, well then, by all means, get another amp. MOAR AMPS!!!1!
postjack Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Posted January 12, 2009 Oh, well then, by all means, get another amp. MOAR AMPS!!!1! lulz
Duggeh Posted January 12, 2009 Report Posted January 12, 2009 Those platinum units are fucking hideous. Bring back the 77 carbon series say I! Now that's a remote control.
mulveling Posted January 12, 2009 Report Posted January 12, 2009 Posty, Buying new amps does indeed scratch the audiophile upgrade-itch but the euphoria is fleeting and the difference usually not in line with the expense. Today I have a hard time justifying an amp over $1K for my speakers (that said I could stand to unload one of my extra unused amps) - that money would be far better sunk into your vinyl rig or squirreled away for the next great pair of speakers. With the huge market of used and vintage amps, you can usually find one to drive your speakers "right" for well under $1K. Newer model amps don't hold their value well, especially when the new-improved models come out. No need to follow the "more $K = moar better" reasoning to its final conclusion of financial ruin. That and as you've discovered, moving speakers within a room or especially into a new room entirely makes FAR more difference for no cash outlay. That said those Quad 77 Carbon series look fukin' sexay!
tyrion Posted January 12, 2009 Report Posted January 12, 2009 AudiogoN ForSale: McCormack DNA 1 This is a great deal on a dna .1 deluxe.
DigiPete Posted January 13, 2009 Report Posted January 13, 2009 How about this: AudiogoN ForSale: Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono
postjack Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Posted January 13, 2009 Posty, Buying new amps does indeed scratch the audiophile upgrade-itch but the euphoria is fleeting and the difference usually not in line with the expense. Today I have a hard time justifying an amp over $1K for my speakers (that said I could stand to unload one of my extra unused amps) - that money would be far better sunk into your vinyl rig or squirreled away for the next great pair of speakers. With the huge market of used and vintage amps, you can usually find one to drive your speakers "right" for well under $1K. Newer model amps don't hold their value well, especially when the new-improved models come out. No need to follow the "more $K = moar better" reasoning to its final conclusion of financial ruin. That and as you've discovered, moving speakers within a room or especially into a new room entirely makes FAR more difference for no cash outlay. This is some sound advice. Thank you, I appreciate your input. AudiogoN ForSale: McCormack DNA 1 This is a great deal on a dna .1 deluxe. ALL CAPS AND ZERO FEEDBACK MAKE POSTJACK SOMETHING SOMETHING I get the idea though, I'll put the McCormack stuff on my shortlist. I have to admit I like the spartan looks and sterling reputation for no-bullshit amplification. How about this: AudiogoN ForSale: Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono The Odyssey stuff is another HC favorite. It's been on my short list, just not my really really short list.
n_maher Posted January 13, 2009 Report Posted January 13, 2009 ALL CAPS AND ZERO FEEDBACK MAKE POSTJACK SOMETHING SOMETHING
DigiPete Posted January 13, 2009 Report Posted January 13, 2009 The Odyssey stuff is another HC favorite. It's been on my short list, just not my really really short list. All I know is the Odyssey Stratos SE I got sounds great! I have finally entered the 'high-end'
postjack Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Posted January 13, 2009 All I know is the Odyssey Stratos SE I got sounds great! I have finally entered the 'high-end' ooh, the Tempest has an onboard phono stage. I'm looking at the Odyssey page now, I didn't realize how damn inexpensive his gear is. Very nice!
DigiPete Posted January 13, 2009 Report Posted January 13, 2009 check out his new beta site odysseyaudiousa.com If you call Klaus he can be very helpful
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