What's up with Musical Laboratory?

[Sherwood]

Their new amp, the Bosangwha, is beautiful (to these eyes.) However, it is a $4000 pair of monoblock chip amps.

I like them because they make unique products, and because they have honest-to-goodness innovations like the gaincard.

I dislike them because they fuse arrogant bullshit like tea ceremonies and heritage pottery with audio equipment, and are ridiculously priced. You can DIY a gaincard for about $150, and while I understand a premium going to the R&D, a 20x premium seems a little steep. They're free to charge whatever they like, but still...

So my question is, does the wrong outweigh the right, here? Lots of companies make mediocre products that are retreads of old, boring designs, but do little to offend. These guys seem to make unique products on the outside and inside, but they are total .

Just curious as to the opinion of some of the members here.

[guzziguy]

I don't know them. But it looks to me as they spent more time and money on the aesthetics of the box than on R&D. While I like a nice enclosure, that's not where the emphasis should be. YMMV.

[Sherwood]

I agree with that sentiment, though I applaud their use of Speakon connectors. The connectors cost about $3.50, though, and are ugly as hell, so their decision surprises me.

[diebenkorn]

those are not attractive.

[deepak]

I suppose those are the ultimate in WAF amps...as long as you keep the connection side pointed towards the wall.

Their lime green and gray website also make me hungry for hint of lime nachos and salsa.

[hungrych]

How is it innovative if they're just using the gainclone design?

[Sherwood]

They designed the gaincard. The gainclone is a clone of their design.

[deepak]

They designed the gaincard. The gainclone is a clone of their design.

Did they design the Gaincard or was it 47 Labs?

[Sherwood]

Well shit. I was under the impression that 47 labs and Musical Laboratory were under the same umbrella, but more digging has proven this suspect.

[Sherwood]

Shakti stones are, of course, ridiculous.

The same question stands for 47 labs, though, despite this not being their product. They still sold the gaincard amp for $3300, and design things very akin to this.

[deepak]

Well shit. I was under the impression that 47 labs and Musical Laboratory were under the same umbrella, but more digging has proven this suspect.

Yeah the reason I bring it up is when I was looking at Gainclone boards from various vendors I remember someone crediting 47 Labs with the design. And the ML website mentions it as well (though vaguely worded).

Shakti stones are, of course, ridiculous.

The same question stands for 47 labs, though, despite this not being their product. They still sold the gaincard amp for $3300, and design things very akin to this.

Right but the R&D costs would then be 47 Labs'....

And they do make some highly regarded products like their transport and their NOS DAC. IIRC all their designs as well.

Edited December 16, 2008 by deepak

[Sherwood]

You are very right, Deepak. 47 labs did design the Gaincard, and it was them I was referencing in the first post. The tea ceremony and the Shigaraki pottery are their things.

[deepak]

You are very right, Deepak. 47 labs did design the Gaincard, and it was them I was referencing in the first post. The tea ceremony and the Shigaraki pottery are their things.

Right but 47 Labs is an actual Japanese company

If anything the ML website is more absurd (in my opinion) with this little philosophy bit: http://www.musical-laboratory.com/musical-performance/

[Sherwood]

I know they're Japanese, and that many of their products are well-regarded. That's what made the question more interesting to me.

Musical Laboratory is ridiculous, and an easy target (though I still like the looks of their stuff).

47 labs contributes real advances, but they are couched in decidedly non musical (or, in my opinion, relevant) housings. Those housings drive the price WAAY up, and I think they're somewhat cheesy. With that in mind, both their debatable successes and their debatable failures, what do you think of them?

[deepak]

I know they're Japanese, and that many of their products are well-regarded. That's what made the question more interesting to me.

Musical Laboratory is ridiculous, and an easy target (though I still like the looks of their stuff).

47 labs contributes real advances, but they are couched in decidedly non musical (or, in my opinion, relevant) housings. Those housings drive the price WAAY up, and I think they're somewhat cheesy. With that in mind, both their debatable successes and their debatable failures, what do you think of them?

Sherwood I'm still a bit confused. The 47 Labs housings are as straight forward as I can imagine; plain black enclosures for the most part.

This is the 47 Labs website: Sakura Systems

Their Gaincard says the US price is $1650, which also seems pretty reasonable given they did all the R&D.

"Those housings drive the price WAAY up, and I think they're somewhat cheesy."

Unless by this you mean Musical Laboratory housings and not 47 Labs?

[Sherwood]

It is $1650 now, true, but it was $3300 on release.

Here's a quote from 47 Labs' site:

"Another feature is the casing. Both the DAC unit and the power supply are encased in a casing made out of Shigaraki ceramic, which has been used to make tea cups and vases for nearly one thousand years in Japan. It's totally de-electric and non-conductive character contributes to Shigarakis' smooth, open sound."

[Beefy]

i see shakti stones.

[deepak]

It is $1650 now, true, but it was $3300 on release.

Here's a quote from 47 Labs' site:

"Another feature is the casing. Both the DAC unit and the power supply are encased in a casing made out of Shigaraki ceramic, which has been used to make tea cups and vases for nearly one thousand years in Japan. It's totally de-electric and non-conductive character contributes to Shigarakis' smooth, open sound."

Ah alright I see that.

My opinion of 47 Labs (and not Musical Laboratory) is that they're using an "interesting" marketing schema that a lot of audiophile companies (even ones that design fantastic products and not just snake oil) might use to make themselves standout.

In comparison Musical Laboratory's offerings looks absurd and yes a bit pretentious.

All just my opinion.

[Sherwood]

Perfectly warranted, and thank you for wading through my mistaken grouping of two unrelated companies to come to my intention.

[Pars]

I guess I'm not up on the history of gaincards/gainclones, etc. There is alot of traffic on diyaudio regarding gainclones.

For ML's offering: 2900 or 3300 Euro for a fucking chipamp? Bend over... and not even a kiss first

[malcolm.hyde]

For those of you have not seen it, we recently agreed to an interview with MonoAndStereo.com

.:: Mono & Stereo ::. ... the finest in high-end audio ...: Interview with Musical Laboratory*

This gives a good introduction to who we are and what we are trying to achieve.

In terms of pricing : like some of the forum members here we started in the DIY scene, so we too know what things cost. The commercial scene is quite different : A commercial manufacturer is likely to receive 30% (40 if they are tough negotiators - which incidently we aren't) of the RRP after the middle men ( dealers and distributers) take their cut.

With web sales we have to charge the same prices, but fewer than you might think will buy something unheard - it requires an act of faith by our customers, esp. if you are not the Nelson Pass, Martin Logans, or other High St brands of this World.

But Musical Laboratory* is not really about making money, it came about as a realisation of my passion for Music, combined with a complete inability (at the time) to find anything in the High St. High End emporiums, which played music in a natural way or which were enjoyable to listen to for more than a few seconds.

We apologise if the margins in our web shop seem unreasonable for what is 'only a gainclone'. In fact it sounds illogical to say but generally it is true to say, 'no two clones sound alike'. The Rev. 2.3 Bosangwhas, as it happens, are on a completely different level of performance compared to the original 4706 Gaincard. (I can say this, firstly because we openly credit Junji's masterpiece as one of the reasons that we exist as a company. Secondly I own (and have done, for many years ) an original Humpty-powered 4706, which is still used as one of our points of reference.) Steven R Rochlin at EnjoyTheMusic.com - who wrote a seminal review of the Gaincard in 1999, 'outing' it to the West - will (I hope) corroborate this, when he publishes his review of the Rev.2.3 Bosangwhas next month.

The Rev. 2.3s are offered with a choice of two PSUs : 'Mono' which is our entry-level SMPS design, & the 'Dual' which is a more powerful - specifically audio - SMPS which we collaborated on. The cost of just one of the modules in our Dual PSU costs 200 EUR; while another in it costs 70 EUR (not USD). So when the forum member aliasing as Sherwood claims that one can build a clone for 150 USD this might, in fact, still be correct to say - however one should be wary to avoid the the trap of thinking that all Gainclones therefore cost this much to make.

Finally, forum members may be interested to learn that we are offering - for a while - our friends at AudiogoN 25% cash-back, if they mention Audiogon when they order from us. Same now applies if you mention 'Head-Case'.

Best regards, to all you Audiofreaks.

malcolm hyde, Founder of Musical Laboratory*

[hYdrociTy]

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