HD800? Another rumor?

[Hopstretch]

There is a coloration in the HP4 that I believe is from the transformers. I was never able to get rid of it by tube rolling. It's pleasant when you listen to it, but always there. When I went OTL, the absence of the coloration was refreshing to the point that my HP4 went almost unused except for meets, until I finally sold it.

Who knows, I may now have yours.

[spritzer]

The incorrect assumption that you've been making is that there is such a thing as a "stock form".

Changing to boutique caps or leaving out the "bias adjustment" for the 3rd stage doesn't change the basic "design" which is always the same on the amps we've had a good look at. It's the same clusterfuck time and time again...

The newest pics are especially entertaining in a twisted way since Mikhail actually built two filament supplies into the PSU but only used one of them. Running all those tubes off a single 6.8A winding isn't a good idea to say the least...

[nikongod]

There is a coloration in the HP4 that I believe is from the transformers. I was never able to get rid of it by tube rolling. It's pleasant when you listen to it, but always there. When I went OTL, the absence of the coloration was refreshing to the point that my HP4 went almost unused except for meets, until I finally sold it.

I dont think its necessarily the transformers, but the ways feedback is applied around the output stage and its driver, and the "unconventional" coupling network between the gain and driver stage.

There are far worse things out there than transformers.

The newest pics are especially entertaining in a twisted way since Mikhail actually built two filament supplies into the PSU but only used one of them. Running all those tubes off a single 6.8A winding isn't a good idea to say the least...

so there are 2 separate circuits on the board where all the parts are doubled up? 2 rectifiers, 2 big power resistors, 2 big electrolytic caps, and 2 small films?

[Hopstretch]

I dont think its necessarily the transformers, but the ways feedback is applied around the output stage and its driver, and the "unconventional" coupling network between the gain and driver stage.

Either way, I perceive it as a pleasant tonal richness, so it's all good.

[spritzer]

There are far worse things out there than transformers.

Yeah... cheap PSU caps.

so there are 2 separate circuits on the board where all the parts are doubled up? 2 rectifiers, 2 big power resistors, 2 big electrolytic caps, and 2 small films?

There is no PCB in that PSU so it is identical to my unit except with two complete, yet seperate DC filament supplies, each running off it's own transformer winding. On my unit there were two rectifiers (one for each winding) but only a single set of caps, resistors. The winding is actually hooked up to the rectifier on this one but nothing connected to the output...

[Hopstretch]

One more graph from me.

I'm puzzled by the varying scale of the x-axis in these individual graphs and the implied position of the 0dB point. I'd assumed it was supposed to be indicated by the very slightly thicker/darker gray line, but here the labeling certainly makes it look like that's +2dB and that the 6kHz peak is at or above +4dB.

Poor printing? Poor interpretation on my part? These graphs were not, apparently, "crafted for perfection."

[n_maher]

What's with the weird spike that I'm seeing in your graph?

[boomana]

[Hopstretch]

I hate your faces.

[The Monkey]

A loud snort erupted from my nose when I saw kitty. Still giggling.

[n_maher]

At least it made the midrange a little funnier.

Don't hate the cat, hate the graph.

[Hopstretch]

Don't hate the cat, hate the graph.

Already do. Someone elsewhere has, with that inimitable HF diction, already put his finger on why the graphs were a dumb fucking idea in the first place.

Is that mean when you sell your HD800, ppl will ask for the graph 1st? No 6khz peak have higher price? better resales value.

[n_maher]

It seems that at best the graph could be called a gimmic.

[nikongod]

I'm puzzled by the varying scale of the x-axis in these individual graphs and the implied position of the 0dB point.

Its a logarithmic scale on the X-axis because of how we hear.

Every "fixed length" represents 1 octave: every time you DOUBLE frequency you get the same length.

A linear scale would compress the info below 1kHZ to the point where you couldnt read it or make the graph so long as to be impractical.

I'd assumed it was supposed to be indicated by the very slightly thicker/darker gray line, but here the labeling certainly makes it look like that's +2dB and that the 6kHz peak is at or above +4dB.

Poor printing? Poor interpretation on my part? These graphs were not, apparently, "crafted for perfection."

1kHZ is the 0dB reference point by definition, weird that nobody's graphs line up that way. They probably set their equiptment for a specfic pair, and then drew the individual graphs without resetting the levels for each new one.

If you correct for that, you have +1,-3db across the given range. Not exactly something to sneeze at compared to a real speaker in a real room. Senn and some others have argued that the dips at 2K-4Khz are there to counteract some funky ear canal resonances, so the response may EFFECTIVELY be even flatter compared to a real speaker system.

[Elephas]

I've been listening to the HD800 pretty much exclusively since I got them, about three weeks ago. I went through a few 6SL7 in the Zana Deux. Sylvania VT229 and 6SL7WGT both seemed a bit too lean and thin, as well as Raytheon VT229. I liked the Mullard CV569, Tung-Sol VT229 and 6SU7GTY.

I received an HF2 a few days ago and compared it with the HD800 for a while. The HF2 seemed to be another typical Grado, "fun" sounding but lacking refinement and clarity and exhibiting some tendency towards harshness. I don't really like it. I used to be able to enjoy Grados before, for short listening sessions, but it seems that for now the HD800 has ruined that for me. I took out the PS1 and HP2 for quick listens, and they confirmed the same thing. The HD800's clarity, details and soundstage especially made very large contrasts with the Grados. Maybe the ZD isn't well-suited to the Grados, but then it might not be for the HD800 either. I'm disappointed with the Grados.

I also took out the L3000 and R10 for quick comparisons. The L3000 was also particularly disappointing, being relatively muddy, compressed and lacking clarity. I hated it. Yes, it was bad. I was thinking what the hell kind of sound was this?! Why did I want to keep it? The R10 was much better, and the switch from the HD800 was less of a shock. However, it lacked bass impact and seemed quite colored. Actually, every headphone seemed colored after switching from the HD800. At least the R10 compared favorably in terms of clarity, details, soundstage and especially, its superb midrange.

I think most experienced people understand this phenomenon, of being accustomed to one headphone for some time and thereby experiencing a shock when switching to another. The other headphone just seems so alien, and unlistenable, even. I thought that I was quite used to the recalibration after switching, but it seems that the HD800 is making a surprisingly large and solid impression of itself.

I guess it's obvious I like the HD800 very much and it's definitely one of my favorites. But there are times when it seems bland and tasteless, similar to the way the K701's tonality makes me feel. It's a kind of lack of emotional response to the music on my part, not really any single quality I can point to about the HD800. A bit lack of soul, for the lack of a better word. Sometimes, I'm just not as emotionally invested in the listening experience as I know I can be with some other headphones.

Maybe it's an amp or source issue. I think the ZD drives the HD800 better than my little Lehmann BCL, plus the Corda Symphony and Graham Slee Solo that I've compared briefly. In the months to come I hope to benefit from others' experience amping the HD800.

[The Monkey]

I guess it's obvious I like the HD800 very much and it's definitely one of my favorites. But there are times when it seems bland and tasteless, similar to the way the K701's tonality makes me feel. It's a kind of lack of emotional response to the music on my part, not really any single quality I can point to about the HD800. A bit lack of soul, for the lack of a better word. Sometimes, I'm just not as emotionally invested in the listening experience as I know I can be with some other headphones.

I find this description very much in line with my own experience thus far with the HD800. I like it very, very much. By far my favorite dynamic. But I am beginning to suspect that I have more of that emotional response when I have listened to the O2. I haven't listened to my stats in a while, so I will need to confirm this theory.

[Hopstretch]

Obviously not an apples to apples comparison, but when I can listen to the Quads on the desk as loud as I like, I prefer them to the 800s. Especially with lower-fidelity pop and rock music. They're just more fun.

But I still like the 800s more than any other headphone I've had a chance to live with.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Hopstretch

[The Monkey]

But I still like the 800s more than any other headphone I've had a chance to live with.

When is your O2 rig arriving?

[Hopstretch]

When is your O2 rig arriving?

Next weekend, with you?

[kelvinz]

I received an HF2 a few days ago and compared it with the HD800 for a while. The HF2 seemed to be another typical Grado, "fun" sounding but lacking refinement and clarity and exhibiting some tendency towards harshness. I don't really like it. The HD800's clarity, details and soundstage especially made very large contrasts with the Grados. I'm disappointed with the Grados.

I think most experienced people understand this phenomenon, of being accustomed to one headphone for some time and thereby experiencing a shock when switching to another. The other headphone just seems so alien, and unlistenable, even. I thought that I was quite used to the recalibration after switching, but it seems that the HD800 is making a surprisingly large and solid impression of itself.

I guess it's obvious I like the HD800 very much and it's definitely one of my favorites. But there are times when it seems bland and tasteless, similar to the way the K701's tonality makes me feel. It's a kind of lack of emotional response to the music on my part, not really any single quality I can point to about the HD800. A bit lack of soul, for the lack of a better word. Sometimes, I'm just not as emotionally invested in the listening experience as I know I can be with some other headphones.

I really agree with all the statements you made. The HF2 is a bit of a disappointment to me. Maybe I just don't favor the Grado sound. My friend loves my HF2's and ended up ordering a pair for himself. If Nate is correct and the HF2's start selling for $800 I'm getting rid of mine in favor of some JH13's

Your description of the HD800 is spot on. My issue with them is that they make me painfully aware that I'm listening to a recording very flat and lifeless/soul less.

I find this description very much in line with my own experience thus far with the HD800. I like it very, very much. By far my favorite dynamic. But I am beginning to suspect that I have more of that emotional response when I have listened to the O2. I haven't listened to my stats in a while, so I will need to confirm this theory.

The last straw I had with the HD800 was after I returned from the Final Fantasy Distant Worlds symphony at Benaroya Hall last week. I had some amazing seats(H) and Nobu Uematsu was sitting three rows behind me . I had a huge emotional response listening to the music at the symphony. I purchased the CD during the intermission and of course listened to it on my HD800's when I got home the next day.

What a disappointment.... The HD800's do not pull me into the music at all, after listening to the whole album once I switched to the O2's to me it was like night and day. For me the O2's have a better headstage and sound more realistic even though initially they sound very closed in. The way the O2's present the headstage is really technically amazing to me each instrument really has it's own space. In contrast the HD800 sounds dry and artificially cavernous.

[Elephas]

The thing with our emotional response to music is that it's variable. This is one of the subjective aspects of the hobby that can be very different from person to person, and therefore subject to a lot of confusion.

Even when it is only one person, me for example, I know that I'm variable from day to day and my listening is subject to mood, time of day, type of music, happy or sad, sleepy, tired, did I just drink a beer, etc.

That's why I think reaching even a preliminary understanding of a headphone's qualities and capabilities requires a lot of time and experimentation, with a variety of gear, a variety of music, and enough time to make sure the listener's variables are all accounted for.

[Elephas]

My purpose and goal when listening to music is the enjoyment of music. It sounds simple, but it isn't.

Some people might say that they want to hear the source (the recording), exactly as it was intended. Or the way the artist or recording engineer intended. Warts and all. Or as close to a live performance as possible. A bad recording should sound bad. Maybe a highly resolving, transparent and neutral headphone such as the HD800 is the type that comes closest to this "truth."

I'm not the "truth-seeking" type of listener. I want the illusion and the experience to be enjoyable; that's the goal. I'm happier if the recording engineer's tricks are successful and my ears and brain are deceived into thinking that they're immersed in the soundstage and the singer is right in front of me. When everything clicks into place, when the music, the recording, the gear, the headphone and myself all work together and the illusion is successful, the headphones disappear and it's just me and the music and a state of zen-like bliss.

Headphones that I consider neutral-sounding include the HD800, HP-2, K1000, K701, SR-Omega and 4070. Of these, the 4070 has probably produced the most bad listening experiences for me, meaning that the illusion and the enjoyment wasn't successful. I feel like I'm listening to a feed, monitoring the sound like a machine without feeling an emotional connection to the music.

I'm sometimes hesitant to talk about the emotional aspect because of variability among us, plus the large variety of music we listen to. But it seems that for me, the HD800 is a headphone that excels in practically every area except for that one.

Qualities such as bass impact, imaging, soundstage size and treble extension can be compared, and one or another headphone can be deemed superior. Some qualities like details, PRaT or bass textures might be more difficult to compare. All these are objective qualities and one person's assessments should be close enough to another's. But emotional response to music is much more difficult to compare.

[pabbi1]

I listen to the music, but want to know what all the parts are that make it up, as if someday I'd like to reproduce the part (bass or guitar), and have no chance if you can't ever hear the distinct parts. The hd800 does that exactly for me, then, it's up to me to reassemble the parts while listening. For what I mostly listen to, I doubt there is much soul, as opposed to production engineering, knowing how the music is put together, from initial writing through the recording process.

If it were just guys walking into a studio and doing direct recording, then maybe, but in most "commercial" music, it really is how well they processed all the parts. Even for something like "Get The Knack", that was all done in 3 days, there are several takes, overdubs, etc. that sound fresher than something that took a year of studio and post production time. So, that type thing has the sintered listen, as well as the individual instrument layer, then how well the parts are interwoven, which the hd800 makes possible, moreso than anything I've heard to date.

Now, the search for the right amp continues...

[Headphone Dreamer LD]

Hi pabbi1, Elephas.

Have Just read your views about the HD 800 and have deeply understood what your saying.

Also this shows just how much effort has been placed in respecting and analising all of what you say....Sennheiser have obviously given this much thought in getting things right, and for good reason.

Really enjoyed reading both of your experiences with the above headphones and shall greatly look forward to owning my pair of HD800's.......after waiting 4 1/2 months now, I know that this will be worth the wait.

To be honest'' this will be one of my highlight of purchases for this year.......

I am a bit of a novice on this site, but appreciate the knowledge & experiences found here, and deeply appreciate the help that others give with getting the best out of my system.

Thank you all.

P.S. Like those who have said, that it's not about seeking perefection that counts ''it's when everything fits the illusion and the enjoyment''....I totally agree with this.

[pabbi1]

I am quite embarrassed that my impressions to date are with my balanced Bijou, which, while quite good, is not my best amp. There is one better built (Raven, IDHT, with Swedish iron) but not through QC and biased, which I'll hopefully get together within the month, then building something even beyond that I just got all my Japanese iron in yesterday. Time to finish up my regulated DC heaters (fully DHT), and that one will also be a couple of months out.

And, I still need to shoot out the hd800 and he60 with equally capable amps, so maybe within 60 days or so. And, emotionally uninvested observers will help with the final judgement(s), probably more about the amps than the phones.

But, hd800 is getting all my playing time these days.