HD800? Another rumor?

[postjack]

team buffet.

[hirsch]

Only one of each in a category is the rule of Team Minimal.

I'm minimal at last! One R10 single-ended. One R10 balanced. Obviously these belong in different categories.

[Torpedo]

Still working: one killer 'stat (O2), one killer dynamic (R10), one all-rounder (HF2), one fun 'phone (225), one closed portable (esw10), one killer iem (JH13), one gym iem (UE11), one great earbud (PK1), one beater (PX100), and now one ortho (YH100).

Only one of each in a category is the rule of Team Minimal.

You can split the "killer dynamic" category in two, so make it killer open dynamic HD800 (or eventually Qualia), and killer closed dynamic R10, and still be team minimal queen

[Smeggy]

Minimal is a much more interesting term when you're from the boo universe

[Dusty Chalk]

You can split the "killer dynamic" category in two...

I think you just excluded yourself faster'n I did.

[Icarium]

I just finished running 30 minutes of the Isotek Burn-in CD. I've found it to be useful in the past, but it can be hit or miss and results vary.

Yeah, treble is quite bright and bass impact and quantity is low. It's very unlike the HD650. It actually reminds me a bit of the W5000, but tonality, or coloration, is different of course. I consider the HD800 to be more neutral and less colored.

It also reminds me of, dare I say it, the K701. Yes, I said it.

It's like an improved supercharged K701, with more refinement, more details, faster speed, better imaging, better liquidity, basically better everything than the K701.

Poor, maligned and misunderstood K701...

Laf funny. Filburt did a little shootout today on his rig with his late serial #'d k701s and the hd800s and thought the same thing, though he liked the k701s better.

I dunno that I agree, but I didn't do a real shootout like he did. Both are good.

[blessingx]

The other person there came to the opposite order conclusion.

I agree when triangulating off the 650s, especially at the ends of the spectrum, the 701s and 800s have more in common. Surprisingly so. A/Bing them made me want a pair of 701s around.

Supercharged K701s might not be a bad description at all.

[blessingx]

I think I was too hasty proclaiming the HD800 a possible Top 5 favorite. I listened to the HE90 yesterday and its level of refinement, smoothness and effortlessness was definitely a step higher than the HD800.

The HD800 does everything well, but I don't think it excels in any particular area when compared against other 'top tier' headphones. This is the same with most other headphones, of course. It gets very competitive and no single headphone leads most categories.

For example, I think that the following headphones are definitely better than the HD800 in these categories; there may be more, these just seem to be the more obvious ones to me:

Refinement: HE90, O2mk1, O2mk2, SR-Omega, R10

Imaging precision: O2mk1, O2mk2, Qualia

Soundstage size: R10, Qualia

Soundstage coherency: Qualia, O2mk1, O2mk2

Tonal balance & naturalness: HE90, SR-Omega

Bass quality: L3000

Bass quantity just right: O2mk1, Qualia

Midrange quality: HE90, R10, O2mk1, O2mk2

Special magical female vocals: R10

Treble quality: HE90, SR-Omega, R10

Speed: most of the electrostats, Qualia, R10

Details: not really sure yet, probably O2mk1, O2mk2, Qualia

I've left out some headphones I have less experience with such as the K1000, PS-1, HP-2 and Jade.

My Top 5 favorites, HE90, O2mk1, O2mk2, SR-Omega and R10 are tough to beat. The most important category for me is refinement. I can sacrifice some bass quantity, some imaging, some soundstage/headstage size, etc. but refinement is top priority.

With improved amplification, maybe balanced, the HD800 will probably be more competitive. I don't think it'll be easy or cheap, maybe I should just stick with electrostats.

Your thoughts on the HD800 pretty much mirror mine. It is a great all-around headphone, and certainly the best dynamic in current production. But it just doesn't quite do anything special enough to stack up to the very best of the best in any one category of performance. So it's not a top 5 all-time headphone, but certainly a top 15, if not top 10.

To play devils advocate, and reversing it, I'd be curious of the HD800s ranking in the categories where the "top-5/10" phones are sub-"special"? Maybe it's the power (and ranking) of a do-right pleasantness versus a do-wrong irritation, and I'm not yet sure if the HD800s are actually all-arounders, but I do think some of those greats aren't. Course I guess that's why we have multiple phones.

[boomana]

Why do you keep using that word? I do not think you know what it means.

That sounds more like team dim sum.

You are missing the key connection here, Dusty. The word "one" and "minimal" go together, a point on which I think everyone will agree. It's quite simple. As long as I stick to the number one, it's all good.

These gentlemen clearly understand how things work.

I'm minimal at last! One R10 single-ended. One R10 balanced. Obviously these belong in different categories.

You can split the "killer dynamic" category in two, so make it killer open dynamic HD800 (or eventually Qualia), and killer closed dynamic R10, and still be team minimal queen

[Icarium]

The other person there came to the opposite order conclusion.

I agree when triangulating off the 650s, especially at the ends of the spectrum, the 701s and 800s have more in common. Surprisingly so. A/Bing them made me want a pair of 701s around.

Supercharged K701s might not be a bad description at all.

Hey grats on offloading that rudistor thing btw

[blessingx]

Hey grats on offloading that rudistor thing btw

Thanks... maybe, still pending... but, hey I like the NX series!

[deepak]

Vicki, create a "one Sennheiser" category and you can keep the HD800. I'm sure you can ditch the beater PX100 for some other brand's beater

[Elephas]

To play devils advocate, and reversing it, I'd be curious of the HD800s ranking in the categories where the "top-5/10" phones are sub-"special"? Maybe it's the power (and ranking) of a do-right pleasantness versus a do-wrong irritation, and I'm not yet sure if the HD800s are actually all-arounders, but I do think some of those greats aren't. Course I guess that's why we have multiple phones.

Keep in mind that I basically just pulled those "better than HD800 categories" out of a round, dark place. I haven't done direct comparisons with the HD800. BTW, your former GS1000 has a balanced APS v3 cable now, and it says it likes the Zana Deux and is doing fine.

I did do one comparison last night before going to bed, and it was interesting enough that I didn't get to sleep soon afterwards. I was thinking that I needed to get back to this thread and report. Here goes.

Test 1: Team HD800 versus Team HE90 (or "Maybe the source is quite important after all?")

Team HD800

HD800 with stock cable

Lehmann Black Cube Linear (with a Furutech fuse)

Crystal Cable Reference RCA IC

Esoteric P-05/D-05/G-03x

All components using DIY Neotech NEP-1001 silver power cables with either Furutech carbon-fiber or Oyaide metal plugs

Acoustic Revive RTP-4 passive power outlet

Oyaide R1 wall power socket with carbon-fiber cover

Patricia Barber Modern Cool SACD layer only

Team HE90

HE90

HeadAmp Aristaeus with TF ECC83, Siemens ECL86 (with HiFi tuning fuses)

Poeima RCA IC

Accuphase DP-500

Both components use Telos Audio Golden Reference power cords

Isotek Sigmas power conditioner

Patricia Barber Modern Cool SACD (Redbook layer only)

This Team HD800 is heavy on the source side as well as cabling. But the amp is somewhat of a lightweight. It is small and humble-looking. The giant ES-1 could crush it flat, the Zana Deux thinks it is a weakling and the Aristaeus turns up its nose at a solid-state amp.

Team HE90 is heavier on the headphone and amp side. The HE90 + Aristaeus combo is supposed to be a pretty good one. The tubes are good reliable old-stock. The source is comparatively lightweight, though, and it is also Redbook only. Cabling isn't bad by any means, but isn't up to the level of Team HD800. In any event, cabling differences should be subtle at best, or maybe even non-existent, right?

I played Track 5 "Light My Fire" a few times on each team, switching back and forth four times. I like the song, and it has some nice deep bass (the large string instrument) and also some nice deep drums. Ambiance, air, imaging and soundstaging are also nicely showcased. A maracas and an electric guitar adds to the fun.

The result? Team HD800 beat Team HE90.

The HD800 was clearer-sounding, had better details and imaging and a larger soundstage. It actually made the HE90 seem a bit muddy. The bass instrument's notes had better details, texture and impact. The maracas to the left, french horn at the middle left back, electric guitar at the middle right back and hand drums to the right were all better defined, with nicely detailed attack and decay. Each of their notes appeared and disappeared very clearly in their own spaces. The soundstage illusion was very convincing.

And the HE90? Smooth and liquid as ever, and refined. But it didn't have the clarity and details of the HD800. Imaging was a bit blurry, even, and the soundstage was small and not convincing at all.

Soundstaging with headphones for me is a tricky business. I know I'm listening to two small speakers strapped close to my ears. There's really no soundstage in front of me, and a lot can depend on the recording itself. I want to be deceived by the headphone and believe in its illusion, feeling as if I'm a like a hummingbird with big ears floating in front of the singer's face with all the other instruments arrayed around me. The illusion works better with some recordings than others.

I thought that Team HD800 won this matchup quite easily. There wasn't much doubt, or maybe some subtler differences than required more listening time. Team HD800 was more involving and the better listening experience, and I would choose it over Team HE90 without much hesitation.

[Hopstretch]

SACD > CD. Who'da trunk it?

[Currawong]

IIRC the reading materials that come with the HD800 also hint at not turning the volume up too high.

That would explain that I'd read it somewhere.

Hehe, I'm Team Electrostats, what did you expect? I used to be a gopher/driver in the Stax Mafia and got kicked out after I said the O2mk1 and O2mk2 sounded very similar.

You might find higher volumes fatiguing with the HD800 because of its brighter and crisper treble compared to what you're used to. But it could be due to other factors.

I think that the audio chain has effects on a headphone's brightness, harshness, brittleness and listening fatigue. And if your background is a bit noisy and not really that black, listening fatigue can easily occur. You'll feel like turning up the volume because you're not hearing the details clearly, but the higher volume exacerbates treble and upper-midrange harshness.

A good recording + good system + good headphone should allow you to listen at whatever volume you feel like. Ultra-low and barely audible late at night when it is super quiet, without a sense of missing anything or lacking details. Or high head-banging volume (in my case butt wriggling) without any treble harshness, just crystal clear, smooth and crisp treble.

My feeling is that the big stadium around one's ears + the large drivers has something to do with this, only working properly within a certain volume range. I can't explain this well, but at higher volumes, I feel like my ears are being overwhelmed.

I thought that Team HD800 won this matchup quite easily. There wasn't much doubt, or maybe some subtler differences than required more listening time. Team HD800 was more involving and the better listening experience, and I would choose it over Team HE90 without much hesitation.

I've been switching back and forth between the HD-800's, LNS and O2's and I've decided what I want... an electrostatic HD-800.

[justin]

they have that, its called an HE90, start saving!

[deepak]

Maybe HE60 would be closer? Elephas might be able to expand?

[Dusty Chalk]

You are missing the key connection here, Dusty. The word "one" and "minimal" go together, a point on which I think everyone will agree. It's quite simple. As long as I stick to the number one, it's all good.

These gentlemen clearly understand how things work.

Oop, you're right, I misread Torpedo's post backwards -- I read "can't" instead of "can".

Oh, and I ain't missin' nuthin'. You're stubborn, and that's alright by me.

[Torpedo]

Hahahaha, she looks like being a bit so.

I'm studying how to make the categories fit and being still minimal:

Killer closed dynamic for chamber and voices: R10 bass-light

Killer closed dynamic all-purpose: R10 bass heavy

Killer closed dynamic for rock and sheer fun: L3000

Killer open circumaural dynamic all-purpose: HD800

Killer open supraaural dynamic for rock: PS-1

Killer open supraaural all-purpose dynamic: HP-2

Killer orthodynamic: T30

Killer electrostatic: O2 mk1

Killer closed portable: ESW10jpn

Killer open portable: HF-2

My first excellent phones: HD600

I need to find a category for the DX-1000, otherwise I'll have to sell them with the D5000 and a few others

[spritzer]

Does having three phones which all have roughly the same active components (i.e. cable and drivers) count as just having one? Well then I have only one SR-007.

[Pars]

Does having three phones which all have roughly the same active components (i.e. cable and drivers) count as just having one? Well then I have only one SR-007.

Sure it counts as one. One active and two redundant (or spare parts, if you prefer). Very prescient

[Elephas]

Stax Mafia people here browsing dynamic threads, it's kind of suspicious.

Maybe HE60 would be closer? Elephas might be able to expand?

I'm going to stop the "I think the HD800 sounds like" thing for now. I suspect the HD800 is very neutral, transparent and uncolored, without extensive listening and comparisons my impressions seem to be all over the place. More so than most other headphones, its sound seems to be very dependent on the recording and the system.

I already mentioned the W5000, K701 and SR-007. Those three definitely don't sound like each other. I think people were polite and refrained from blasting me, even though that was probably just blathering nonsense by a new HD800 owner who doesn't know the headphone well yet.

[HeadphoneAddict]

Stax Mafia people here browsing dynamic threads, it's kind of suspicious.

I'm going to stop the "I think the HD800 sounds like" thing for now. I suspect the HD800 is very neutral, transparent and uncolored, without extensive listening and comparisons my impressions seem to be all over the place. More so than most other headphones, its sound seems to be very dependent on the recording and the system.

I already mentioned the W5000, K701 and SR-007. Those three definitely don't sound like each other. I think people were polite and refrained from blasting me, even though that was probably just blathering nonsense by a new HD800 owner who doesn't know the headphone well yet.

I agree ranks can change with source/amp/music. I think HD800 ranks up there with my O2, HE60, and other hi-end stats.

[aerius]

Your thoughts on the HD800 pretty much mirror mine. It is a great all-around headphone, and certainly the best dynamic in current production. But it just doesn't quite do anything special enough to stack up to the very best of the best in any one category of performance. So it's not a top 5 all-time headphone, but certainly a top 15, if not top 10.

This is something which I've noticed with loudspeakers & headphones, one which does everything well won't really have an area where it's great and stands apart from the rest. Conversely, a headphone or speaker which is great in one or two areas generally isn't going to be an even all-round performer. I don't really see this problem with sources & amps, well, at least once you spend enough money on them, but with transducers there's always a trade-off to make, at least to my ears.

[atothex]

So even the mighty bass-heavy R10s have weaknesses?