Monitors for 10 x 13ft room, ~$1500 with stands

[postjack]

Hi All-

I've been using the following setup in a 10 x 13ft room now for the past several months:

Quad 22L

Cambridge Audio 840A

Cambridge Audio 840C

Technics SL1200MK2

Cartridges used include DL-103, AT440MLa, KAB/Ortofon ProS30

Phono's used include Hagerman Bugle (60db gain 100 ohm loading for DL-103) and Bottlehead Seduction (for MM)

SVS 20-39 PCi Cylinder Subwoofer

Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects

I only recently added the subwoofer to combat bass issues I was having due to what I guess is room compression. The bass from the 22L floorstanders has always been a bit boomy and unsatisfying in the lower regions. Adding the SVS and keeping the crossover at 40hz did worlds for adding to bass extension, but I'm still having boomy bass issues, no matter where I place the 22L in the room. I'm finally accepting that a floorstander just won't work in a room this small. So rather then fighting it by spending on room treatments, I'm considering just selling the 22Ls and going with a stand mounted monitor more appropriate for near field listening.

I'd rather have a speaker that does well closer to the back wall, but if its something I have to pull out thats fine, as long as it somehow works in my 10 x 13 ft room. I plan on keeping the SVS to mate with the monitors. The 840A does 120W into 8ohms and 200W into 4ohms. Price range is ~$1500 with stands, cheaper is better, though I'm willing to stretch the dollar for great deals. I am fine with buying used. I've been doing a lot of searching and have plumbed through many older threads, coming up with this rough list of options, which I admit stray wildly in price:

Epos M5

Green Mountain Europa

Quad 12L

Harbeth HL-P3 series

Magical, accurate midrange and non-fatiguing treble are crucial. I listen to a lot of rock and a lot of jazz. I get a kick out of nice soundstage and imaging when listening to jazz, with rock I love rich and pure male vocals and some guitar crunch.

I'm at the beginning of this journey, so any advice or recommendations you can give would be appreciated. Please feel free to throw out any other small speaker names that I can research. Thanks!

Addendum: I posted this identical post over at AA and the Paradigm Signature S2 v.2 and Energy RC10 were also recommended to me.

[Icarium]

I like my Europas a lot they have amazing highs and mids but they have been bass light in my room as well. JP and a mutual friend are coming by in a bit to see if they can help me correct it with placement and different stands.

[dsavitsk]

Meet the Fonkens

[swt61]

I'll second the Paradigm, however I love the MoFi monitor, and bargains are easy to come by...

AudiogoN ForSale: Mobile Fidelity OML-1

This is a very nuetral monitor and IME does not need to be placed far from walls.

[Torpedo]

Had you the chance, try the Merlin TSM-xx they're very nice monitors. They produce one of the best mid-bass range I know of on any speaker, which extends to a rather natural midrange. Treble is smooth, nicely extended and blends well with the midrange. They're not resolution or detail monsters, but as most monitors, they image quite well once you use adequate stands and spend some time to place them well into the room.

They're IMHO above the candidates you're considering, but perhaps for the Harbeths, which have their own set of properties. I find voices more natural in the TSM than in the Harbeths, which to my ears have a slight nasal tonality in the midrange. However this could be for room issues, I didn't try them in my own room.

The TSMs have the advantage of being a closed enclosure design, their bass rolls off more smoothly than on ported ones, so subjectively, seem to get lower than they really do, but not causing much troubles in smallish to midsized room. Their 40Hz is quite audible, but where they shine is in the 80-200Hz range, you'll be amazed for the timbre they can reproduce for acoustic basses, guitars, male voices....

They love "neutral" tubes, but I guess they'll sing quite well with your CA amp.

[freckling]

Look into the Revel M20's. They're honest speakers that throw a good soundstage. There's a switch in the back that allows you to standmount or place them near a wall. They were designed by Voecks (Snell) under the supervision of Floyd E. Toole.

AudiogoN ForSale: Revel M20 speakers

$700 is as low as I've ever seen them go for. I highly doubt they'll last very long. Good luck in your search

[freckling]

those are pretty beat up.

Hence the $700 price tag, but if they work as they're supposed to and aesthetics isn't a concern, they're not so bad. I personally wouldn't buy those, but eh. As a reference for the op, non-cosmetically damaged pairs usually go for 900-1000 on A'gon.

[aerius]

Since you already have a sub you can grab the GedLee Nathan 10 or stretch the budget a bit and buy the Abbey 12. I've had a brief listening session with the former and I was quite impressed. Think Grado HP-2 and you won't be too far off.

[Hopstretch]

Aerial 5B? You'll have to be quick on Audiogon, though, as they don't last.

[Dusty Chalk]

So rather then fighting it by spending on room treatments, I'm considering just selling the 22Ls and going with a stand mounted monitor more appropriate for near field listening.

May I just be the first to say: did you try hitting yourself on the back of the head with a shovel? good luck with that. Floorstanders don't take up that much more room than bookshelfs/monitors...if you put them up on stands. Have you tried it? Just bring them into the middle of the room, and listen to them nearfield. It'll give you an idea if you're heading in the right direction. You may reconsider your "no room treatments in '09" stance, too. Did you try plugging the ports with old socks/ERS paper holebungs?

Spendor's S3/5's sound great nearfield, if only at modest volumes.

JM Labs Tantal 509's sound great near-ish field (a couple feet away), and I have them backed into corners -- but that may be what you consider boomy. The bass is well...present.

I've had the Dynaudio Special 25's corner loaded with the holebungs in place -- sounded great, but then I'm definitely a basshead. Mebbe I should just stay out of this thread.

[postjack]

ok ok, i'll try room treatments! geez, you and barry diament. next thing you'll be pushing mmg's and outlaw amps on me.

[deepak]

:-o you posted this on Hoffman forums. I think I'll recommend you speakers I haven't heard before over there

[postjack]

but really the whole idea of a smaller speaker is that a smaller enclosure moves less air, so less opportunity for boominess.

[Dusty Chalk]

No, boominess is a function of overhang, not amount. You can have emphasized bass without it being boomy (cf. PS-1). One of the nice things about listening to my Dynaudios with their fancy shmancy tweeters was that despite the elevated bass, is that I could still hear the midrange and treble, and clearly. The only time I got distracted by the bass was psychologically -- I.E. I caught myself listening to the bassline, rather than the gestalt.

But listening nearfield at modest volumes will help -- you'll be listening more immediately to the speakers, less to the room's resonances. That's why I recommended listening to your floorstanders in nearfield -- it'll give you an idea if your new supposed listening situation -- the nearfield one -- with its combination of volume and distance -- is enough to overcome the room's acoustics.

[postjack]

define nearfield then, because some would already describe my current listeninh distance of 7ft as nearfield.

[luvdunhill]

I've had the Dynaudio Special 25's corner loaded with the holebungs in place -- sounded great, but then I'm definitely a basshead. Mebbe I should just stay out of this thread.

I never understood that speaker. First-order, but not time-coincident? I looked very hard at this design, and it's well-worth the study. The design lends itself to forward mid-treble, smaller rooms and the stand height is critical, due to vertical lobing problems. I have some notes around here somewhere, but that's what I remember off the top of my head.

[luvdunhill]

define nearfield then, because some would already describe my current listeninh distance of 7ft as nearfield.

distance between listener and speaker and the distance between the speakers is roughly equivalent? I dunno what the technical definition is ...

[postjack]

distance between listener and speaker and the distance between the speakers is roughly equivalent? I dunno what the technical definition is ...

sweet, i'll go with that and give it a shot.

[luvdunhill]

I'd also take a shot at reading this:

[audio physic] - no loss of fine detail

and the Cardas website articles, for example here's one:

Cardas Audio

[Dusty Chalk]

distance between listener and speaker and the distance between the speakers is roughly equivalent? I dunno what the technical definition is ...

No, that's the definition of an equilateral triangle. If both of those are seven feet, then that follows your/Cardas' definition, but that's not nearfield. Nearfield means you're close to the speakers, period. I mean, think about it -- if both of those are 15 feet, then it still qualifies as that definition of nearfield, but I would still not call it nearfield. 7 feet is not "close to the speakers", that's a body-length away and then some. Think of an engineer sitting at a mixing board. The speakers are usually at the other side of the listening board and no more. That's nearfield (unless, of course, he has a 7-foot mixing board [which is not unheard of] -- not all engineers listen in nearfield -- some of them have it in the wall, which is some distance from the mixing desk).

I would say within a couple feet. It might be a function of the room, but I'm not going to do the math. Intuitively, it'd have to be some small fraction from the distance to the nearest wall, like on the order of one order of magnitude (1/10th). That's just off the top of my head...basically, you're listening such that first reflections are essentially irrelevant.

And it's also got to have something to do with the size of the room -- obviously, if you're in a closet, you have to be right up against the speakers, and if you're in a huge auditorium, you have a little bit of room to play with before I -- anyway -- would stop considering it nearfield. But you still have the floor to contend with (again, when I, anyway, would consider it to stop being nearfield), so there's an upper limit, that no matter how big your room is, it wouldn't be nearfield. 7 feet would be outside of that, IMHO.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Dusty Chalk

[swt61]

"Near-Field Speaker: a compact studio monitor designed for listening at close distances, typically between three and five feet. When sitting at this near-field distance, the listener hears a greater proportion of direct sound from the monitors (compared to the reflected sound bouncing around the room) so, in theory, the effects of poor room acoustics are greatly reduced."

Since nearfield listening basically derives from the studio environment, I'd call this definition fairly accurate. But generally it also involves desktop placement.

[postjack]

let me also say that I am a basshead as well. I crave impactful, deep bass, not a floppy sloppy mess.

Today I tried removing the subwoofer and moving my listening postion 5 ft from the back wall (38% of the rooms length). So at this point I was a few feet from my speakers, truly "near field". Didn't like what I was hearing, things got to bright and wearisome.

I achieved much better results by moving my seat back to a foot or two from the back wall, bringing the sub back in, and plugging the ports with socks. I inched up the sub crossover a little and things were sounding nice. The bass coming from the sub sounds good, and I've eliminated some of the bass coming from the 22L, which sounded bad.

I'm willing to try the Diament suggested cardboard boxes full of crumpled newspaper in the corners method, just need to get the supplies and the time.

[deepak]

Barry Diament is the man

[postjack]

Barry Diament is the man

its hard for me not to listen to the guy who mastered the atco japan genesis "a trick of the tail". it and the MFSL Heartbreaker are generally my reference discs.

[deepak]

He did Heartbreaker? Nice.

Me, I like the Atlantic/Japan 20P2 Zepp discs he did. Still haven't heard better from LZ on CD over 20 years later.