America...

[humanflyz]

The intolerance shown in this thread is astounding.

If you know something to be blatantly wrong, why should you tolerated? Why should a math teacher "tolerate" a student's opinion that 2+2=5?

You can't go from making an empirical claim (different opinions exist) to making a normative claim (that because different opinions exist, we should treat each and every one of them as equal or equally true).

[swt61]

I think we need to be more careful pulling the race card out here. Do you really know your fellow members well enough to make this assumption? If the candidates were both the same race there would still be a heated controversy about each of them...there always is.

I for one have doubts about Obama's experience, but I remain hopeful and welcome a change.

I also believe 4-8 more years of the same economic strategies would be a big blow to this country. Although seeing first hand what she did for Alaska in such a short time, I'm a big Sarah Palin fan. That's right Bubba, that's what I said!

As for race, I won't say that it made no difference to me. That would be a lie. I don't consider myself a racist, but we all have some prejudices that are nurtured from a very young age. I believe that understanding that and owning up to that is the only way we're going to be able to start to change our own inherited, unwanted, senseless ideas that skin color is a valid reason for fear or hatred.

My hesitance in fully supporting Obama stems not from the color of his skin, but from his lack of experience and his "share the wealth" ideology. That wreaks a little of socialism to me. Socialism as an idea may look appealing, but in practice it's always been a disaster IMHO.

I'm sure that some will still think me a racist just because I'm not waving an Obama flag overly enthusiastically, but in truth had Condoleezza Rice been a Presidential candidate I'd have been the first in line to vote for her.

I'm an aging cynic who's been lied to by too many politicians to ever get overly enthusiastic too quickly these days, but I will support and respect Barack Obama as my countries President until given sufficient reason not to.

[humanflyz]

My hesitance in fully supporting Obama stems not from the color of his skin, but from his lack of experience and his "share the wealth" ideology. That wreaks a little of socialism to me. Socialism as an idea may look appealing, but in practice it's always been a disaster IMHO.

Steve, with all due respect, I will have to disagree with your claim that redistributing wealth is the same thing as socialism.

[swt61]

Steve, with all due respect, I will have to disagree with your claim that redistributing wealth is the same thing as socialism.

And I'm hoping that his plan for that is far short of socialism. That remains to be seen, but again I do feel hopeful and I'm looking forward to a term of enlightened change. I just can't help some skepticism with any candidate. Rounding the bend toward the big 5-0 has much to do with that me thinks.

[aardvark baguette]

I'm not quite sure what to call giving tax breaks to people who dont pay taxes, if socialism is too strong a word. Any ideas?

[postjack]

My hesitance in fully supporting Obama stems not from the color of his skin, but from his lack of experience and his "share the wealth" ideology. That wreaks a little of socialism to me. Socialism as an idea may look appealing, but in practice it's always been a disaster IMHO.

Socialism and capitalism both look lovely on paper, but neither takes in the human element. Socialism leads to the inevitable slacking and people living on the dole, and for a market to really be 100% free, we would have to allow for things like child labor and monopolies.

I don't buy the Obama is a socialist argument. If he does hold to merely returning to the tax system of the Clinton era (4-5% tax increase on those making $250K or more), that should be groovy. Its just a progressive tax, like we've had for some time in America. I believe Obama will rule in the center, and I will be disappointed if he chooses all Dems for his cabinet. I'm really hoping for a Lincoln-esque cabinet, but that could just be Doris Kearns Goodwin getting me all excited for the possiblity.

to clarify, it is my belief, based on a rather strenuous study of history, that act of seeking office, of seeking to become a politician, to attain power over others, even if it is "for the good," whatever that means, sullies a person. even good men, like John Adams, become raving fucktards upon tasting it.

you make kitty scared.

All I'm saying is, by accepting your first statement above, if you were to live forever, you would be consigning yourself to an eternity of political apathy and cynicism, because, paraphrasing your own words, the pursuit of power corrupts absolutely without fail, and to you this is unacceptable, so no politician will ever live up to your expectations (unless somehow politics becomes once again more service-based, but inferring from your own words you believe any service-based political system will feed in on itself and be replaced with a power-structure requiring ambitious persons to pursue a place in it, which is done in an attempt to attract talented persons to office, but which I understand backfires on itself due to the unattractiveness of the process of achieving office, which is another reason I respect politicians). So why even participate in a thread like this where we debate politics? I think anime is stupid no matter what, so I don't waste my time in discussing anime with people.

[swt61]

I think anime is stupid no matter what, so I don't waste my time in discussing anime with people.

Oh My God! That may very well become more controversial than this political thread. Are you prepared for the fallout? I must admit I'm with you here, but it may just be the two of us against the masses.

Sorry Fitz!

[aardvark baguette]

make that 3 of us

[JBLoudG20]

Kick his ass, Sea Bass

[morphsci]

make that 3 of us

Well at least 4 of us.

[tyrion]

And our President Elect campaigned in 57 states as he himself stated.

The intolerance shown in this thread is astounding.

You want to compare that single misstatement to Palin's fundamental lack of understanding of 3rd grade geography. Such as whether Africa is a continent, whether South Africa is just a part of the country of Africa. Also, what countries make up North America. What countries are part of NAFTA. What is the Bush doctrine (she had no clue what Gibson was asking). Do you really doubt that Obama knows the number of the states based upon that one incorrect statement? It isn't even in the same league as Palin. Then of course the allegations that Palin was responsible for the shopping spree and even had aides put more money on their credit cards. I don't believe Newsweek would go with this story if they didn't have the back up but I'm willing to wait to see what comes out when the RNC audits it's books.

I'm not quite sure what to call giving tax breaks to people who dont pay taxes, if socialism is too strong a word. Any ideas?

Have you heard the entire interaction between Obama and Joe "the alleged" Plumber on this subject. Raising taxes for one and lowering them for another has been going on for a long time. It is not socialism. Are you talking about giving a tax break for those that make too little to pay taxes? Please explain. Are you referring to a tax credit being given to people that make too little to pay taxes? Those making under $200,000 that will get a tax reduction. Those over $250,000 will pay an additional 3% on the amount over $250,000, the same tax rate they paid under Clinton. The same rate paid before Bush decided to give that same group a tax break hoping it would trickle down to the rest of the economy.

[aardvark baguette]

Joe "the alleged" Plumber?

I take it you bought into the demonizing of the man who had the "audacity" to question Obama who walked down his street while he was playing catch with his son?

Yes, rich people have been paying more taxes for a long time. Its always been that way, and always will, most likely. Does that mean they just withdraw from the political process, rather than try to lower their rate somewhat?

People that dont make enough to pay taxes shouldn't get money directly from a tax break. His plan is like welfare, only he is giving it to people who havent even applied for welfare in many instances. You can argue either way whether or not they deserve it, but the fact remains they paid no taxes. I'm of the mindset that, particularly in an instance of a surplus, people who pay taxes should get the tax breaks. It makes more sense for the person who paid the most to get back the most.

[tyrion]

Joe "the alleged" Plumber?

I take it you bought into the demonizing of the man who had the "audacity" to question Obama who walked down his street while he was playing catch with his son?

Yes, rich people have been paying more taxes for a long time. Its always been that way, and always will, most likely. Does that mean they just withdraw from the political process, rather than try to lower their rate somewhat?

People that dont make enough to pay taxes shouldn't get money directly from a tax break. His plan is like welfare, only he is giving it to people who havent even applied for welfare in many instances. You can argue either way whether or not they deserve it, but the fact remains they paid no taxes. I'm of the mindset that, particularly in an instance of a surplus, people who pay taxes should get the tax breaks. It makes more sense for the person the most to get back the most.

I was only addressing you calling it socialism, nothing more. I am going to be paying those higher taxes so I would love to get to the point where they can possibly be lower but I'm more than willing to pay the small amount extra on the chance it will do some good. We can argue about taxes all day long, I was addressing the comment that somehow it is socialism what he is doing. When McCain was arguing against Bush's tax cuts and that the middle class should get a cut in '00 was he a socialist?

We've had welfare in different forms for a long time. Under Republicans and Democrats. I'm still unclear on the tax cut those that don't pay taxes are going to get.

If you listen to the interaction, Obama showed nothing but respect for Joe and his question. His answer in no way could be described as advocating socialism. I wasn't demonizing him although I think he was way over his head and full of shit.

[aardvark baguette]

I didnt mean to imply Obama himself demonized him. He was certainly respectful on camera. But the fallout after, with his campaign, and various pundits digging into his past tax history, and trying to dig up dirt, was a ridiculous thing to do to someone who simply asked a question.

Obama and McCain are not necessarily socialists themselves, like I said, that may be too strong a word. But the act of giving taxes back to people not paying in the first place, the concept seems pretty close to socialism to me. I realize its been going on for a long time, but I dont see how that makes it not so.

Hopefully it will do some good, otherwise it would be an incredible waste, especially during such a bad time in our nation's economy.

I feel that Obama used the "95%" tax return talking point a little aggressively, and I think thats why you get so many people arguing about socialism. When that becomes the main priority in a campaign, the masses simply vote themselves money.

I think its highly possible it will not lead to permanent good. Its not like $500 is magically going to get all the disenfranchised a college education that Obama seems to think is a birthright. Its setting up bad habits. You can expect a wealth of future candidates to run on a platform of "giving back to the community" now that his campaign has proven successful. Overtime, people will view government hand-outs a right, not a privilege.

[grawk]

I think we need to be more careful pulling the race card out here. Do you really know your fellow members well enough to make this assumption? If the candidates were both the same race there would still be a heated controversy about each of them...there always is.

I for one have doubts about Obama's experience, but I remain hopeful and welcome a change.

I also believe 4-8 more years of the same economic strategies would be a big blow to this country. Although seeing first hand what she did for Alaska in such a short time, I'm a big Sarah Palin fan. That's right Bubba, that's what I said!

As for race, I won't say that it made no difference to me. That would be a lie. I don't consider myself a racist, but we all have some prejudices that are nurtured from a very young age. I believe that understanding that and owning up to that is the only way we're going to be able to start to change our own inherited, unwanted, senseless ideas that skin color is a valid reason for fear or hatred.

My hesitance in fully supporting Obama stems not from the color of his skin, but from his lack of experience and his "share the wealth" ideology. That wreaks a little of socialism to me. Socialism as an idea may look appealing, but in practice it's always been a disaster IMHO.

I'm sure that some will still think me a racist just because I'm not waving an Obama flag overly enthusiastically, but in truth had Condoleezza Rice been a Presidential candidate I'd have been the first in line to vote for her.

I'm an aging cynic who's been lied to by too many politicians to ever get overly enthusiastic too quickly these days, but I will support and respect Barack Obama as my countries President until given sufficient reason not to.

Steve here summarizes my views pretty succinctly I wish Condi didn't hate politics so much.

[postjack]

all this talk of taxes and socialism makes me think: what is the fair tax burden for each of us? Was it more fair under Clinton, or more fair under bush? Any flat tax proponents here? I don't claim to know these answers, I'm just asking.

[grawk]

There are lots of fair taxes. None of them are currently employed by the government because the government uses taxation for manipulation in addition to usinig it for revenue.

I do think that "refunding" taxes to people who didn't pay taxes isn't right. It's just disguising that it's a hand out. Whether handouts are ok or not is debatable, but it's certainly not a refund if you didn't pay it to begin with.

I believe that they should eliminate payroll deductions. Make each person write out a check for their taxes in april. People would get a better understanding of exactly what their government costs them. Then maybe they'd make smarter choices with what the government is responsible for.

[aardvark baguette]

I think the best answer is to get a hold of spending before changing where they're at right now. I favor a spending freeze over more taxes and or tax cuts.

[n_maher]

Any flat tax proponents here?

Yup, I'm kind of a fan of a flat tax, 0 deductions kind of policy. If for no other reason that paying taxes to enforce paying taxes (the IRS) doesn't sit well with me. In 2005, the last fiscal year available, it cost the IRS approximately 10 billion dollars to collect our taxes. I'd like to think that that money could be put to a lot better use and that a simplified tax code could go a long way to reducing that number. Of course a substantial reduction of the IRS will probably never happen but I hope to live to see it.

[blessingx]

And our President Elect campaigned in 57 states as he himself stated.

Maybe this thread has gotten a little too serious, but are you making a joke or actually equating a 47/57 slip-up with thinking a continent was a country?

[aardvark baguette]

people see what they want to see.

[ame=

- Barack Obama Makes Shocking confession!![/ame]

[ame=

- The shocking Barack Obama debate you haven't seen!![/ame]

[n_maher]

I love individual statements, taken completely out of their context as a whole, stitched together on You Tube and then presented as a unified argument. Did Obama make conflicting statements during his campaign and life, of course, who doesn't? Which one of you can say that every opinion you've formed during your years has stayed exactly the same, without fail? And that you've never done something wrong, learned a lesson from it and been made the better for it? I really wish that we'd stop holding politicians to an unreasonable standard, they're just people and as such prone to making mistakes. Once and a while it'd be refreshing to hear one of them allowed to admit a mistake, explain what happened and what they'd do in the future when presented with similar circumstances. Instead, the minute one of them contradicts or hints that they may have altered their stance we call it flip-flopping or some other catchy phrase and go nuts. We, the people, are a bunch of morons.

[tyrion]

What exactly is your point? Did you vote for Bush the last two elections? If so, are you proud of those votes or do you regret them? Do you really believe that John McCain would be a better leader of this country right now? If the answer to all of the above is yes or if you voted for Bush and are proud of those votes I will move on as there is obviously nothing I can say that could possibly have any credibility to you.

[Jeepster]

For all the people who rave about Socialism, "Polly wanna cracker"

[grawk]

I voted for Bush in both of the preceeding elections. I felt like he'd be a better president than Al Gore and John Kerry. I still believe that. I'd make those votes again.

I definitely believe that John McCain would be a better leader for this country today than Barak Obama. I voted for McCain instead of Bob Barr for that reason.

Do I think George Bush was the best possible president we could have had for the last 8 years? No, but he was better than the alternative the opposition provided. I don't have the "all possible outcomes" crystal ball to look at. And I don't blame the president for every problem in the world.