America...

[humanflyz]

So the not-religious have put forth exactly which popular state or national propositions/laws that took away your rights to perform what? No self-professed agnostic or atheist has ever taken away anothers right to personally pray, read their preferred holy book, enter into a relationship with whoever you preferred, vote, spend money, watch TV, etc. It's only the status-quo believers who fight change because accepting others viewpoints can impede their majority/governing current status. Their god and beliefs above all others. Unquestionably. If I'm going to be generous I guess some statue/sculpture debates have gone a bit overboard, but even there there is historical and multi-religion display options. Meanwhile shall we list the number of laws targeting other beliefs and/or non-believers? Shall we look at Ms. Dole's ad again?

See the difference? Stop attacking those who have different beliefs or none faith-based and you'll probably stop hearing them complain about your attempts to take away their beliefs. Simple.

To state those tolerant must accept all intolerance is arguably immoral, but certainly unethical and impractical.

While I'm mostly sympathetic to your argument, I think it falsely assumes that religious authority can be neatly separated from secular authority. While this assumption, in my opinion, largely holds for Protestanism, I don't think it applies for religions that claim to override any and all secular authority.

[Blackmore]

Just wonder, forget all different opinions, whats is the best way to come out of crisis. I do not think that changing the president will change the situation quite fast. Lets put it the very simple way, where he is going to get money for a changes he want to make? Are the U.S. industry strong and modern enough to stay alive with all that stuf coming from China. Another thing, to make a huge move, would be getting the forces back from Afganistan and Iraq to a home. Well, thats a pain, for a lot of folks, isnt? You just can not force your budget like that, cos all your other programs will be dead in a second, meaning schools, hospitals, pensions etc...I just thinking by speaking this up, nothing more, so please do not get me wrong, o.k. If I am going to compare with Europe for a second, I would take one thing for example, one thing only. Up here, in HOLLAND, we have the right for a 25 business days for a vacation per year and getting paid for it as well, but...There are a lots of but...We pay a huge TAXes to cover all that shit, o.k., but also for a poeple who doesnt work to get a welfare, but also for people who arent working to get an medical insurance, but also for people who doesnt work to get some education for getting a new job...I think I will stop up here, cos I do not even begun about people who cant work because of their illness, but still have a home, food and medical care.

When you are talking about the changes you are talking about all that shit above, imo, but that would mean an revolution, well kind of, isnt.

I am not saying that its a bad thing to take the step to this direction, but are the Americans really ready to do so, thats the question I am not getting any impression so far. Because what I think will hapened when the economy will recover, it will get back to old rails all over again, dont you think?

[tyrion]

That's the reality of sharing a country with people. I still argue with the use of religious in this sense, though, since forbidding gay people to marry does not require anyone's belief in a god.

Maybe if those that are religious and want me to have abide by their beliefs were more tolerant it would be easier to share the country with them. It is true, you don't have to believe in god to want to forbid gay marriage but it is that claim to be religious that seem to lead the charge in the name of religion.

[humanflyz]

My problem is when the religious views of politicians find it's way into legislation which then forces those religious beliefs on those that do not believe.

Mike, I personally don't think it's a strictly a problem that a politician's personal religious beliefs find their ways into legislation he drafts....so long as the legislation is justified on non-religious grounds so that non-believers can accept it without having to commit to those very religious views.

[guzziguy]

Mike, I personally don't think it's a strictly a problem that a politician's personal religious beliefs find their ways into legislation he drafts....so long as the legislation is justified on non-religious grounds so that non-believers can accept it without having to commit to those very religious views.

Do some research into who threw money into which sides in California Prop 8 and you may have to change your mind here.

[Sherwood]

One Nation, Under God, Indivisible... that's law in quite a few places, bucko. i realize it wasn't what you were talking about

I'm of the understanding that, according to federal law, you are not compelled to recite the pledge of allegiance. Shudder to think what it will do to your kid in West Virginia to not say it, but you can hardly blame the feds.

[Sherwood]

there is compelled and then there is compelled.

That I cannot argue with.

[blessingx]

I'm of the understanding that, according to federal law, you are not compelled to recite the pledge of allegiance. Shudder to think what it will do to your kid in West Virginia to not say it, but you can hardly blame the feds.

Well, considering what they do to cooks who make sloppy, slimy eggs...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc3SEBA-9nU]YouTube - Jesco White on Sloppy Eggs[/ame]

[aerius]

Just wonder, forget all different opinions, whats is the best way to come out of crisis. I do not think that changing the president will change the situation quite fast. Lets put it the very simple way, where he is going to get money for a changes he want to make? Are the U.S. industry strong and modern enough to stay alive with all that stuf coming from China. Another thing, to make a huge move, would be getting the forces back from Afganistan and Iraq to a home. Well, thats a pain, for a lot of folks, isnt? You just can not force your budget like that, cos all your other programs will be dead in a second, meaning schools, hospitals, pensions etc...I just thinking by speaking this up, nothing more, so please do not get me wrong, o.k.

Exactly. The damage which has been done to America goes all the way back to the 1960's, though it's only been in the last 30 years or so, and particularly the last 10-15 that we've really begun to notice it. There is no way to fix that in one term, or even two. We can make a start and lay the groundwork, but that's about it.

Funding programs is going to be nearly impossible as the current administration has rammed through around $3 trillion of new debt via the banking bailout programs and the projected deficit for next year is in the $2-3 trillion range, which is roughly equal to the entire federal budget. Undoing the bailout damage alone is going to take up an entire term of office. And everyone will be screaming for his head as he attempts to fix the mess, the bankers will hate it since he's clawing back the bailouts, and the people will hate him for making their investments and home prices fall back to historical norms. Everyone will be poorer, some will be a hell of a lot poorer.

There are no easy fixes because every past administration has chosen to kick the can down the street and let the next sucker deal with it, except at some point that can hits a wall and you can't kick it down the street any further. If we haven't hit the wall yet, and I'd argue that we have, it will most certainly hit in the next 4 years. Hard choices will have to be made, as the America's problems can't be put off any longer.

[Sherwood]

The bailout was implemented in such a way as to mitigate itself, if the markets improve. It might take four years to do so, but it will happen with or without the executive officer's oversight. The bailout was not a blank check, and it will not likely cost as much as projected.

The market tanked, in part, because it expected Obama to win. Now that he has, things can return to (kind of) normal.

[mirumu]

Just for the record, I did not vote for McCain. I had at least as many issues with his platform as I have with Obama's. The problem I mainly have is with people who treat Obama as some kind of mythological hero. He is, like all career politicians, someone who traded honesty for power. He is not to be trusted out of hand.

As non-American living elsewhere in the world I think that mythological hero view you mention is the way many outside of the US viewed Obama. Certainly speaking about here in New Zealand it was the view promoted by our media and resonated with the average person on the street. Most of these people though had only heard a few sound-bytes.

Unlike the majority here I followed the US election campaign quite closely and my view is more in line with yours. Were I a US citizen I would still most likely have voted Obama, but would have done so without any illusions of what he is or isn't. Either way, he certainty looks to have an uphill struggle and it would seem very unlikely he'll be able to satisfy the unrealistic expectations many out there have of him.

[Sherwood]

Until they saw how much better we were than the British, that is.

[bhd812]

You truly are a jackass.

Will be interesting to watch if change happens. Especially if you stop with the them blacks and their free ride shit. Do you really think you can change?

as mean as it sounds when you work next to one of the countries worst ghettos and see on a daily basis how people use what they are given for free and then bitch about you being white and them being black then you rethink what i said.

on the first of the month seeing a family of 4 or 5 peeps roll in the check out line with two shopping carts loaded, one all with soda and the other with chips,candy and the best cut steaks. you put their order in as anyone else but god forbid if their link card don't work (which was very common, mostly due to them not getting a new card once the old wore out), oh boy the white comments start following and the blame is all on you...you..

either know there is nothing as a minimal wage cashier can do, either know you will bend over backwards to help their link card work as you would any customer regardless of payment type, either know you would love to see someone use what they have to help themselves and better themselves and yet being white gets thrown in your face.

i will never forget the first day i slept over my fathers fire station and went with him and on his engine to a few fires. you see being a fireman for 30 years was one of the two jobs my father worked to get me where i am, to put food on the table, to put me threw school. on one call the firehouse responded to my dad told me to stay in the cab of the fire truck cause it was not safe. then about and the end of the block of where the fire was the fire truck had the stop and wait for police escort to go further. i asked my dad why and i remember him telling me because fireman and ambulance get rocks thrown at them and shot at so they have to wait for police to escort them closer in. i remember thinking as a child who would wanna hurt someone who is there to help them? really who would do that?

police came and sure enough as the fire truck pulled up rocks started to hit the fire truck and hearing the people scream outside their windows "fuck them whites!".

as i said before i believe Obama can inspire people to better themselves, its not about me changing cause i know what i can do and i know what i can use to my advantage to better my life...hopefully others will figure what they have and do the same. i am not racists and nowhere near it, maybe i am angry to see and witness people holding themselves back and down then blaming me cause of my skin all while i try to help them get their groceries and like my father tried to save their homes and their lives. if anyone can inspire who needs to be its got to be Obama!

so before you quote me i wanna see walk out of Le Claire Courts (which is only a few blocks away from me) then call me a jackass, see how you will be treated and by who you are treated yet you are there to help them...then call me a jackass.

[JBLoudG20]

Exactly. The damage which has been done to America goes all the way back to the 1960's, though it's only been in the last 30 years or so, and particularly the last 10-15 that we've really begun to notice it. There is no way to fix that in one term, or even two. We can make a start and lay the groundwork, but that's about it.

What's this WE shit? You're a canuck.

[JBLoudG20]

to put me threw school.

FAIL

[aerius]

What's this WE shit? You're a canuck.

The problems are no longer confined to the US, unfortunately, Canada has also been infected with the crap that's going on south of the border. Arguably, most of the G20 has the same problems, though to varying degrees. No single country can fix this crap by itself, we, like it or not, all have to work together for a solution.

[bhd812]

FAIL

LOL damn!

wateva

[JBLoudG20]

The problems are no longer confined to the US, unfortunately, Canada has also been infected with the crap that's going on south of the border. Arguably, most of the G20 has the same problems, though to varying degrees. No single country can fix this crap by itself, we, like it or not, all have to work together for a solution.

I guess you are used to being infected by crap south of the border. :rimshot:

My G20 is not infected.

I see your point though.

[Jeepster]

you know, i've never met an atheist who professed to want to forbid gay marriage who wasn't just saying it to get a rise out of someone. as a strong atheist and a fairly committed secular humanist, i couldn't give a shit less who marries who, and can't imagine a non-religious reason to change my mind on that.

Exactly.

[Jeepster]

http://www.bangedup.com/post.php?media=13765

Notice the reference to Palin, she is against Gay marriage is she not?

[grawk]

She's pretty solidly pro-gay rights

[Jeepster]

Palin Contradicts Anti-Gay Record, Blatantly Lies : Gay Rights Watch

She is against gay marriage and did and will continue in the future to pander to the radical religious community. She is a bad apple.

[ingwe]

I'd say it's blowback from pushing too hard on the issue via the courts. I would prefer it if marriage wasn't an issue for the government at all, really.

eww...

[Jeepster]

last time i checked, Obama wasn't in favor of gay marriage rights. unless he was just lying when he said that.

I think Biden covered that in the video I linked to.

[mirumu]

The problems are no longer confined to the US, unfortunately, Canada has also been infected with the crap that's going on south of the border. Arguably, most of the G20 has the same problems, though to varying degrees. No single country can fix this crap by itself, we, like it or not, all have to work together for a solution.

Agreed. Even countries that aren't infected are being dragged along with the roller coaster ride.