America...

[tkam]

try to keep things under control, i'm unlocking the thread

[aardvark baguette]

I just want to go on record; it is Obama's platform I disagree with. I respect him as a person. I think its ok to disagree with someone's "gameplan" without hating them in any way.

[tyrion]

I just want to go on record; it is Obama's platform I disagree with. I respect him as a person. I think its ok to disagree with someone's "gameplan" without hating them in any way.

No argument there. I don't necessarily agree with all of his positions.

[aardvark baguette]

Nor I with McCains.

[Torpedo]

I'm glad to see this thread open again. For a moment I was thinking I had joined the wrong forum. Not that I'm interested in politics and politicians, paraphrasing the Bible IMO it's easier to make a camel go throughout the needle's eye than finding a honest politician, but I'm glad of being part of a community where people are respectful with others' opinions and any topic making some sense can be discussed.

[postjack]

I just want to go on record; it is Obama's platform I disagree with. I respect him as a person. I think its ok to disagree with someone's "gameplan" without hating them in any way.

X2. I have respected and admired McCain longer then any other politician, but as I've grown older I'm becoming much less of a classical liberal and more left of center and a proponent of at least some market regulation.

That said, I do hover around the center and am open to either party. I am eager to see how republicans reinvent themselves. If they choose to go in the direction of people like Palin or GWB, meaning people who have no intellectual thirst, then I have no interest in them. Legislation of morality and shoddily fought neocon wars are a huge turn off to me.

Now if republicans start acting like true conservatives again, then I'll listen to what they have to say.

For the record, my republican family loves and respects the rights of all peoples, regardless of race or sexual orientation.

[aardvark baguette]

high five o/\o

[ingwe]

What turned me off completely were/are the appeals to fear/hate (by both sides--but overwhelmingly by the M/P campaign).

[aardvark baguette]

As for republicans, in my personal opinion, its time to leave behind the majority of social issues, i.e. gay marriage. Its just baggage at this point. All I want is clear-headed, rational spending and decision making. I dont like taxes and I think people should pull their own weight whenever possible. I also dont think the entire system is broke to the point of re-writing laws or adding new amendments. A big move toward center is needed.

The thing that really killed it for republicans is all the corruption circa 2006. All the child molesto bullshit. Its such a stupid problem to be having.

I do feel that Obama was unfair calling it "8 years of failed policy" though. That completely writes off six years.

With all the fuck-ups of Bush, it will be interesting to have someone fresh in office, I have to admit. But the entire campaign was based on change, so it will be interesting to watch and see if he continues to focus on 2001-2008, and blame everything on that window of time, or step up and make it happen, and accept any consequences.

[riceboy]

Regardless, I am not ashamed to admit I take great joy in this day. I feel like I was born a political cynic, and this election I actually did put myself out there, in a position where I could be emotionally hurt again, like I was with John Kerry 4 years ago, and like I was with John McCain 8 years ago, by supporting Barack Obama. And last night he won. He won big.

I'm so happy to have a man who can think and speak in the highest office of this land.

Hey Jack. I agreed with you four years ago, I agreed with you 8 years ago, and I agree with you now. George W. Bush and his team smeared the crap out of Senator McCain 8 years ago and I favored him then over Bush, but unfortunately the Republicans had their man. I remembered telling my then girlfriend, now wife that I wish that McCain got the nod for the Republican ticket 8 years ago and was sad that he didn't.

Overall, it was a landmark occasion either way of the aisle with either party making history. I'm just happy that the party I was pulling for made that history last night

[tyrion]

Just for the record, I did not vote for McCain. I had at least as many issues with his platform as I have with Obama's. The problem I mainly have is with people who treat Obama as some kind of mythological hero. He is, like all career politicians, someone who traded honesty for power. He is not to be trusted out of hand.

No one should be trusted out of hand. I don't know that I consider him a mythological hero, as you put it. However, I can't help but look at what happened last night a pretty special in the history of this country. Does that make him a hero, I think so. Does that make me forget he is also a politician, absolutely not.

[n_maher]

I do feel that Obama was unfair calling it "8 years of failed policy" though. That completely writes off six years.

Please elaborate on which of the 6 years you think were a success. I'm a financially conservative, socially liberal minded person for the most part so neither candidate really represented my way of thinking. But some of what McCain's platform ended up saying socially bothered me more than what Obama represents economically. And I'm sorry, McCain's choice of VP made it impossible for me to vote for him. Not so much because of who Palin is (the VP is worthless for the most part) but because it showed the type of person he was willing to choose to be a part of his administration.

And I too question how much real change can occur regardless of who's in office. I have hope for now and that's better than I've felt for a good number of years.

[gloco]

As for republicans, in my personal opinion, its time to leave behind the majority of social issues, i.e. gay marriage.

Good point! This is one of my biggest beefs with politicians who keep bringing this stuff up. How about fixing the things that really affect us? Gay marriage and abortion has no bearing on my life whatsoever. The economy, healthcare, education, the war in Iraq are far more important and pressing issues.

[gloco]

if you were responding to me, i'm neither a republican or a conservative. i am a classical liberal, a supporter of Jefferson. i am a trained historian with an emphasis on American history, enlightenment to reconstruction. i am a skeptic. you sir, appear to be the kind of person who you are hellbent on denouncing.

there, i have responded to those things which i missed because i was busy this morning. i will respect dan's having closed the thread, if anyone wishes to respond, you are more than welcome to PM me.

I was referring to grawk's post above....

Hellbent on denouncing? Ok, when I see someone post irrational drivel (again, read grawk's post above re: JFK and tell me if you think he's not off the deep end) I plan on taking them on. Whats the matter, you audiophiles have thin skin?

[aardvark baguette]

Please elaborate on which of the 6 years you think were a success.

While not a complete success, positive things happened. Enough to the point where "failed policies" is too strong a term, imho.

After 9/11, during 2 wars, we were kept safe on our shores would be one major point.

During the first 6 years:

Consumer confidence stood at a 2

[GPH]

My view on the topic as a non-American is that Obama inspires a lot of people in the USA and around the world and brings some fresh air in US politics. That's a very good thing IMO. He may or may not stand up in the future to what people want him to be, but for now, in the present, he connected with a lot of people that were not interested in politics previously or were cynical about it and gave hope to these persons. Sure, when putting some thought into it, we could say it's all sentimental BS and pretty artificial, but countries need strong leaders with character and new ideas, especially in time of crisis, and I think that's exactly what Obama brings to the table.

Also, like it or not, Bush really sabotaged US foreign relations, and it's good to see a president that will likely be more open and try to re-build some bridges that were previously destroyed. I kind of hope also that the US will stop to follow Israel's agenda in the Middle East, but my expectations are low on that point.

[Sherwood]

I am eager to see how republicans reinvent themselves. If they choose to go in the direction of people like Palin or GWB, meaning people who have no intellectual thirst, then I have no interest in them. Legislation of morality and shoddily fought neocon wars are a huge turn off to me.

Well stated, and I could not agree more.

I did not vote for Mr. Obama yesterday, because I have some irreconcilable differences of opinion on what this country should be and where it should be headed. Nonetheless, he is now my president, and as a public servant and a patriot I intend to support him.

I voted for John McCain with a heavy heart, as I have never agreed with him on many aspects of his policy either. I do not feel he was the best republican candidate, but he was the choice we were given.

I am extremely eager to see how the Republican party handles this well-deserved loss. Should they reinvent themselves into the party they have been, i.e. one of governmental nonintervention socially and fiscally and one that emphasizes personal responsibility, I will be delighted. I sincerely hope I am able to vote for a candidate I believe in four years from now.

One of my other favorite places, Belarus, recently had an election as well. The ruling party controls the state media, and didn't allow publicity for the opposition. He won with 97% of the votes in an election the UN decried as a farce.

We do not live in that country. We live in one of peaceful regime changes and, for the most part, thoughtful politics. I am pleased that America has definitively chosen a leader, and I sincerely hope it addresses some of the myriad problems this nation has.

[n_maher]

After 9/11, during 2 wars, we were kept safe on our shores would be one major point.

One word, Katrina.

I'd also argue that Bush had little to do with our relative safety and in fact did more than any of his predecessors to aggravate and make us a bigger global target. And let's not even get into the rape of our personal freedoms at the hands of his frenzied wiretapping.

I'll be watching carefully to see what Obama is going to do with the likes of Gitmo and the hundreds (?) of folks we've been holding without charge or trial for the past 6 years. That's yet another f'ing mess he's left with.

[Pars]

While not a complete success, positive things happened. Enough to the point where "failed policies" is too strong a term, imho.

After 9/11, during 2 wars, we were kept safe on our shores would be one major point.

During the first 6 years:

Consumer confidence stood at a 2

[gloco]

i've only read a half dozen or so monographs on JFK and his policy, so i'm not an expert on him. perhaps you should, instead, tell me the specific things about what Grawk said that you disagree with.

Read this and tell me if we should even waste our time discussing it:

This is a cut from his entire post that mentioned JFK directly 2 pages back:

"He reminds be of another bright shining beacon elected for his charisma who got us into vietnam, the bay of pigs, the cuban missile crisis, and who was then assassinated."

Do we really need to discuss this nonsense? This post comes off as a trolling effort on his part.

[postjack]

No one should be trusted out of hand. I don't know that I consider him a mythological hero, as you put it. However, I can't help but look at what happened last night a pretty special in the history of this country. Does that make him a hero, I think so. Does that make me forget he is also a politician, absolutely not.

Well said!

It was the Palin pick that energized me for Obama. That was when I gave money to the campaign.

[iceman94]

The problem I mainly have is with people who treat Obama as some kind of mythological hero. He is, like all career politicians, someone who traded honesty for power. He is not to be trusted out of hand.

This is exactly what I was trying to describe before. Like Reks says, come to a college campus and see what its like.

Something I didn't notice until now was the popular vote. A lot closer than I expected, honestly. Or rather, the electoral vote overemphasizes the actual gap between the two candidates.

[Sherwood]

the electoral vote overemphasizes the actual gap between the two candidates.

That is simply because Obama ran a smarter campaign, or got very lucky. I'm inclined towards the former. Living in Colorado, as a registered republican no less, I received 17 calls from Obama's campaign in the last three days and not one from John McCain. Obama put the numbers together far more effectively.

[grawk]

a smarter campaign meaning he had $600 million when McCain had $84mil.

[Sherwood]

a smarter campaign meaning he had $600 million when McCain had $84mil.

I'd argue that fundraising is a big part of the real brains of a campaign.