Voltron Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 pci express is only going to work with a non-portable solution. Bastards. How about PC laptops? Or Mac Mini? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarium Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Dreadhead, you should add the Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC to your list. It's designed by the team who designed the Pacific Microsonics Model Two, which was certainly up there as one of the finest professional DACs in the world. Yeah I recommended it to him, but I think he ruled it out. I'm very interested in hearing it myself.. may take a trip weekend after the coming one. I have a transport plan. That being said I'm probably not interested in it myself as it seems to be not fully discrete, which at the asking price I'd expect (5k). Plus the Spectral SDR-2000 Pro I have now is fully discrete and designed by Keith Johnson who was a principal design figure in Pacific Microsonics (Co-creator of HDCD as well) and Berkeley Audio's Alpha dac. People who have compared the two say that the SDR-2000 wins on redbook, but the flexibility/hirez of the alpha dac is of course very appealing. I'm personally more interested in seeing how the SDR-5000 plans out and what it's used pricing will normalize to as it probably will be a fully discrete/cost no object version of the berkeley audio dac. Also I now kind of want a Model 2. I didnt realize that it could do 24/192.. a model 2 for hi rez would be awesome. I am pretty sure I could find one given time, but I suppose I'd have to really use the ADC to justify that amount of money. I wish the socal guy who has it would bring it to canjam09 and people could get some hdcd vinyl drops going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Bastards. How about PC laptops? Or Mac Mini? Nope, pci express is a full sized slot. What would that card get you that the built in optical doesn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltron Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 What would that card get you that the built in optical doesn't? Me no know. Are there limits on the bit rate of the output? Can it do 24/192 from the optical? I simply do not know, but I understand that the AE is limited to 16/44. Lynx Studio Technology AES16e PCI Express AES/EBU Interfaces The AES16e offers 16 channels of 192 kHz AES/EBU I/O. In addition to the base model, the AES16e-SRC includes sixteen channels of sample rate conversion and AES16e-50 will provide up to 32 additional digital inputs/outputs via AES50 technology. The AES16e builds on the capabilities of our industry-standard AES16 with an updated feature set and the benefits of the PCI Express interface. The architecture and higher bandwidth of PCI Express reduces bottlenecks and overhead, which provides higher performance for computer-based high end audio. The AES16e x1 PCI Express card provides 16 channels of 24-bit AES/EBU digital audio at a 192 kHz sample rate in both single-wire and dual-wire AES modes. Designed to integrate digital consoles, multi-channel A/D and D/A converters, hard disk recorders, digital audio workstations and other digital audio equipment, the AES16e is compatible with Windows and Macintosh operating systems. The AES16e-SRC provides 16 channels of sample rate conversion, which may be switched on for any or all of the 8 digital inputs. The third model, the AES16e-50, will add up to 32 digital I/O channels using AES50 technology, carrying the digital signal on standard CAT5 or CAT6 cable. Features * x1 PCI Express interface works with Macintosh or Windows PCs with PCI Express slots (x1 - x16). * Eight stereo inputs and eight stereo outputs (16 mono I/O), AES/EBU format, 24-bit, single wire and dual wire, transformer coupled. * Extensive on-board digital mixer. * Optional sixteen channels of Sample Rate Conversion. Support for conversion ratios up to 16:1 with 144 dB dynamic range and -140dB THD+N. * Optional AES50 interface. * All relevant settings, such as sample rate selection, sync source selection, channel routing, and buffer size are enabled, controlled and monitored from the host computer. * Multi-channel support of 5.1 and 7.1 surround playback formats. * Includes Lynx-exclusive SynchroLock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 The optical on the macs will do 24/96. As to the 16 channel part, unless you're doing more than 2 channel out, that doesn't really help you . An alternative would be a firewire sound card. There are several that should fit your needs without requiring a mac pro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knuckledragger Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 It would be funny if DOTU ended up with a MOTU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltron Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 DOTU MOTU sounds like a cartoon character, but maybe just because it is close to one of my heroes (not really). I don't need the 16 channels at all, but the Berkeley Audio people apparently like it because it is 24/192 capable, does digital only so no analog business to muck it up, and because they think you should have a big-ass computer sitting in your rig. I don't really want an external firewire thing because the idea of taking this from place to place is appealing to me since I have rigs in two places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Given the dearth of source material at 192, I would just use the optical out on the mini or macbook. Eventually, you'll be able to use the hdmi for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Monkey Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Which MOTU product is best suited to home listening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 None of them, it's a suggested alternative to get your bits out for the dac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knuckledragger Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 "I'm wet, I'm naked, your sister is wearing my clothes and this is all part of some evil plot to rule the world as a soggy chimpy in my birthday suit?" An M-Audio FW410 has FW400 in, and does 24/192. I am unsure if it does that bit/sample rate via its digital output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadhead Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Yeah I recommended it to him, but I think he ruled it out. Ruled out is not the right word. I'm just not as interested. The lack of info is also a problem for me. The reason I lean towards the pro stuff is I like the idea of using the same DAC that they used to master the CD I'm listening too. The Pacific Microsonics definitely interests me too. I'd rather not do DSD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanY Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Plus the Spectral SDR-2000 Pro I have now is fully discrete and designed by Keith Johnson who was a principal design figure in Pacific Microsonics (Co-creator of HDCD as well) and Berkeley Audio's Alpha dac. I'm sure it sounds fantastic, but the SDR-2000 Pro does use the PMD100 which is pretty old tech (1994). Hopefully the state of the art has moved forward in the last 15 years. (In terms of jitter removal it definitely has.) I think it's still worth giving the new device a listen. Firewire is always a good alternative to PCI Express cards for digital out. Unlike USB, Firewire is always an asynchronous protocol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Jitter removal is only significant if you think you've ever heard jitter. I don't think I have, personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torpedo Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 You probably have, but weren't aware of it. I was for some time using a Sony player as a transport, whose digital output happened to end up failing and needing fixing. The first thing I noticed, a few hours before it failed and digital out muted, was a harsher sound that was only noticeable to me in two main areas, the voices quality and as though certain details were enhanced, things like the bowing on a double bass which became too noticeable. Those are sounds that once I've learned to spot, would make evident the type of connection I'm using, then knowing if I'm using a toslink or a coaxial connection. Maybe that difference in sound is not just because of jitter, however it's one of the few measurable parameters differentiating them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarium Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 I'm sure it sounds fantastic, but the SDR-2000 Pro does use the PMD100 which is pretty old tech (1994). Hopefully the state of the art has moved forward in the last 15 years. (In terms of jitter removal it definitely has.) I think it's still worth giving the new device a listen. Firewire is always a good alternative to PCI Express cards for digital out. Unlike USB, Firewire is always an asynchronous protocol. Yeah I'm definitely going hear for myself before forming a final take on the matter... I think the Alpha DAC will sound very good, but the question for me is if it is the best when it comes to redbook. Unfortunately I don't think the state of the art has moved a lot in the last 15 years. Most of where innovation has moved forward seems to be how to do things cheaper, delta sigma chips, hi-rez and usb input. The PMD100 is still considered a first rate digital filter and some believe even its successor the PMD200 is not as good (But close). Pacific Microsonics had some of the best people out there writing digital filter code and after they were bought out by Microsoft there haven't been any that are clearly better. I think the SM5847 is one of the few more modern chips that can be mentioned in the same breath but even it isn't clearly better. Of course Berkeley Audio with the many of the same principals as PacMicro is probably one of the places that could create something significantly better/more advanced technologically speaking... but even so would it close the gap between a better/fully discrete I/V, analogue output stage, potentially better dac chips? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvdunhill Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Jitter removal is only significant if you think you've ever heard jitter. I don't think I have, personally. Just curious, of all of the DACs that you've listened to, how low has your end transducer been able to accurately reproduce? I feel that the important differences in jitter manifest themselves predominantly in low(er) frequencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltron Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 grawk's end transducer hangs low, buddy. Or so I've heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltron Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Given the dearth of source material at 192, I would just use the optical out on the mini or macbook. Eventually, you'll be able to use the hdmi for it. But I am planning on creating content at 192 and even sharing it as appropriate. The M-Audio thing might allow for both goals to be met at once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanY Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Jitter removal is only significant if you think you've ever heard jitter. I don't think I have, personally. If you've heard two digital transports sound different, that's because of jitter (assuming both transports are bit-accurate and can read data off CDs properly, which is true in most cases). If you've heard two digital cables sound different, that's also because of jitter. There's really no other source of audible differences in digital circuits beyond data and timing. So most people have heard jitter, except for those to whom transports don't make any difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarium Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Yeah that's kind of my attitude too.. why else would two transports sound different? And I feel as if I have heard clear differences before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 If you've heard two digital transports sound different, that's because of jitter (assuming both transports are bit-accurate and can read data off CDs properly, which is true in most cases). If you've heard two digital cables sound different, that's also because of jitter. There's really no other source of audible differences in digital circuits beyond data and timing. So most people have heard jitter, except for those to whom transports don't make any difference.grawk doesn't believe in high-res audio, neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Sure I do. I just don't think you need more than 16 bits for playback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 See? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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