USA, the next nazi germany.

[eric343]

The fundamental difference is that despite what so many have said in retrospect, the Nazi party enjoyed the continued support of the majority of the German people. They had a democratic mandate to behave that way. George Bush does not, and will therefore not be able to push through any policy to that extent. He also cannot conceivably remain in power in 2 years time, and has his actions moderated by the rest of the political system which is still in tact.

Hitler was not a dictator in the vein of a Stalin. He did not keep his power through fear; he exercised it through fear, to the ranting cheers of the majority who were not doing it just for show. The reference to Nazi Germany in the title of this thread is largely irrelevant, and does not add to the weight of the genuine concerns expressed by the OP, as well as yourself and others.

Dunno, the majority supports the new surveillance measures with a 63% majority. Not quite Hitler's 90%+ mandate in the 30s, but Karl Rove is no Goebbels and the United States (even immediately post-9/11, when Bush did indeed have that 90%+) isn't in nearly as bad a shape as the Weimar Republic. [i would argue that much of Hitler's support stemmed from the very real improvements that the German people saw once the Nazi party came to power, and the general perception that the Nazis were the lesser of two evils (the other option being Communism). A similar technique was recently employed by Hamas on a lesser scale to take over in Palestine.] While there certainly were feelings of anti-Semitism before the Nazis were in charge, the wholescale attacks on the Jewish community didn't begin until Heydrich organized Nazi supporters in plain clothes for Kristallnacht.

I would also emphasize that the majority were not blind followers of Hitler as you imply -- not only did the Nazi party membership ever include more than a small fraction of the population, but a spirit of cynicism towards the Nazi administration was common especially towards the end of the war. (This cynicism was accompanied by the cowardice and apathy that kept the vast majority from ever raising so much as a strong word against the Nazis. One of the most remarkable feats of Goebbels and his Propaganda Ministry is that he kept the German population fighting even after they stopped supporting the war. I can provide citations to back that last one up, if you like.)

Back to the topic at hand--

George Bush may not remain in power, but I don't see anyone arguing that he's the brains behind the Republican Party. Nor are his actions seriously moderated by the rest of the political system -- that rest is dominated by the Republican Party and its spirit of top-down control. (Chuck Hagel and recent trends of rats fleeing the sinking ship of public approval possibly excepted.)

It's dumb to argue or expect that anything will ever be a duplicate of Nazi Germany. There will always be significant differences. I don't see the Bush Administration ever perpetrating genocide or opening death camps, and certainly not on the horrific scale of the Nazis. Drawing analogies between anything the Bush administration has done or is likely to do -- or the FDR and Truman administrations' Japanese internment camps -- is foolish and serves only to diminish the abject horror of the Holocaust. (for the record, I think the guy that wrote the previously linked editorial is an extremist idiot of the first order.)

Choosing to see only the differences, however, will blind us to the similarities. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

[grawk]

Re: those who ignore history...

And those who make rediculous comparisons diminish the memory of what really was going on. Making references to nazis will only marginalize the person making the comparison.

[mjg]

grr nevermind. not my night sorry haah. I keep misreading shit... time for bed.

wtf happened to this thread anyway? The title of the thread wasn't meant to be a literal topic of discussion... You guys went off here.

[eric343]

Re: those who ignore history...

And those who make rediculous comparisons diminish the memory of what really was going on. Making references to nazis will only marginalize the person making the comparison.

You're missing the point.

People have voluntarily given up their liberties to a government with no oversight. They have done this because that same government has persuaded them that giving up their rights is necessary to defend the country against an outside threat, or because they were too apathetic or fearful to speak up in face of being branded 'un-patriotic.'

The reason I am drawing the parallels that I have drawn is that those were precisely the same arguments used to justify the abridgement of liberty in democratic societies in the past. The propaganda refers always to "national security" and protecting the state. The labels on the Volksempf?nger radios warning against listening to foreign radio stations? "Think about this: Listening to foreign broadcasts is a crime against the national security of our people. [...]" (http://libraryautomation.com/nymas/radioproppaper.htm)

The NSA monitoring scheme would be no more unconstitutional than the searches allowed specifically under the 4th amendment or the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act if not for the Bush Administration's unwillingness to work through legal channels and the complete lack of justification for that unwillingness. I would be less concerned if they presented arguments for amending FISA, and I would likely not be arguing this at all if they agreed to SOME kind of regulatory oversight. Instead, the administration is flaunting the law and the Constitution in ways that I percieve to be designed such as to set a precedent for future actions along the same lines.

I guess you could say it's their insistence that "The President Is Above The Law" that makes me so damn nervous.

[eric343]

To expound on this a little more...

I find it incredible that I'm seriously arguing for an analogy between the American government and the Nazi Party. It makes no sense -- we have a Constitution, and we all know that this whole NSA program is going to end once the politicians realize that this is another Watergate and go into CYA / reform mode. There's no way we'll ever actually end up under a totalitarian government. That's what happens to other, less intelligent countries. Free market forces and the American way will prevail.

...right?

That is, as far as I know, the way the Nazi Party came to power and the attitudes of 1930s Germany surrounding that rise. I may be and likely am misinformed -- please correct me! Tell me it wasn't just a general spirit of apathy and fear -- "I didn't speak up," quoth Niemoeller -- that let the facists take over. Because that's the same spirit -- 63%! Terrorists! -- that I'm seeing now.

[Dusty Chalk]

No, I'm afraid you're right (as to the analogies). There will be no "great awakening" that you hope will set things right. When's the last time someone slapped their forehead and said, "OMG, you're right, I am an idiot" no matter how many times you honked at him? People don't wake up. They let shit happen, and hope for the best. How do you think that whole Poindexter thing happened? It's not because no-one put together that we were paying terrorists for hostages, it's that they had figured it out, and thought they all had a way out.

Here's my attitude: let's resist the camel's nose under the tent flap, just in case.

[Post]

what's with all this nazi talk bumping the babe thread from the top? looks like i'll have to reach out to everyone here...

Heil Hotness!

[eric343]

Isn't that a guy?

You did say *babe* thread...

[Post]

Isn't that a guy?

You did say *babe* thread...

are you telling me i got "crying game"d? DAMN NAZIS!

[acs236]

Putting the polls aside, until a majority actually elects new leadership, the current one is supported as far as I'm concerned. Maybe things will be different in November.