Help w/new amp. Surrender to...?

[barmar46]

I don't have an amp, nor cables, etc. Is it too bold to ask to be made some kind of head-case "project" and maybe we could work together and look on Audiogon for the components and super deals within my budget. Or again being bold would anyone who feels a strong afinity for speaker systems, has some time and generosity to spare and can handle a neurotic but music loving soul take me on as a work in progress? As Ben Stein said in Ferris Bueler: Anybody? Anybody? Anybody?

You've all been so generous and kind so far, I hope I'm not violating some kind of head-case code. But I have to say too, I really like it here on head-case. I trust you all. To tell you the truth Jacob, if I lived anywhere near Cincinnati, I'd already be at your door.

[Dusty Chalk]

I've only heard ATC's briefly in the store, but they impressed me as one of the good brands. Of the few people I know who own any (on the internet, as well as one can know anyone on the internet), I've not heard anyone who's been anything less than completely satisfied.

That said, sounds like he's trying to get the camel's nose under the tent. Also, they sound like they're just outside of your price capability, and you certainly don't need $3K worth of cables and stands and whatnot. He's trying to get you to buy into a package, when all you really need is the speakers.

BTW, just to throw some counterpoint against what Jacob said, I am definitely not a source-first type guy. I'm of the mind that your system is only as good as your weakest link -- which is what I think is what he was trying to say when talking about the B-52. So if your source is spectacular, and your headphones are spectacular, you really shouldn't chintz on the amp, and if you can't afford not to chintz, then perhaps you ought to think about the word, "compromise" a little bit. Conversely, if you have spectacular amp and headphones/earspeakers, then your source better be up to snuff as well. And that's not even beginning to visit the specter of synergy, which is why I recommended getting the 2900 and living with it for a bit.

Personally, I like deep bass, and think that if you're going to spend $4K on active speakers, you should get full-rangers (and no, 70Hz down 2 db and 45 Hz down 6 db does not count as 'full-range'). You can probably get a decent $1K amp and maybe something like the Gallo Reference 3.1's or Quad 22L's, which are both very good, just to get you started.

[barmar46]

What if...I just bought the speaker for this camel guy(they really are selling for upwards of $8000) and got my cables and stands off (he says they take special $600 stands. Could that be true or could I find some used conventional stands for quite a bit less) Audiogon? What else would I need if they are active speakers? Preamp? I did talk to alot of folks today and read a couple of fine reviews and those speakers came highly recommended for true to life acoustic sound. If there is a way to "have my cake and eat it too" I'd sure like to explore it!"

[Dusty Chalk]

What if...I just bought the speaker for this camel guy(they really are selling for upwards of $8000) and got my cables and stands off (he says they take special $600 stands. Could that be true or could I find some used conventional stands for quite a bit less) Audiogon? What else would I need if they are active speakers? Preamp? I did talk to alot of folks today and read a couple of fine reviews and those speakers came highly recommended for true to life acoustic sound. If there is a way to "have my cake and eat it too" I'd sure like to explore it!"

Sure, gopher rhett.

No, they do not take $600 stands, I got the same pressure to buy $1K stands when I bought my ~$5KMSRP Dynaudio Special 25's. I didn't. All of a sudden that really nice salesman stopped being really nice. Fuck 'im, pretty much. There's more overhead in multi-hundred-dollar speaker stands. They're just going for that "in for a penny, in for a pound" mentality, and trying to milk every last cent out of you. Just stand your ground. A good pair of decent stands will work just as well. Sure, the $600 may be better, but we're talking seriously diminishing returns here.

And yes, you would still need some way of controlling the volume. E.R. (I kind of like that name a couple months back), for example, had variable outs in his source, so if this was him talking, all he'd need is that. Your Denon will not, so you'll need at least something like the Creek OBH-22 or a Musical Fidelity A3.2. Or the like.

And yes, you will need cables. You won't be able to listen to your gear without them. I just don't think you necessarily need his cables. He might be giving you a good deal, who knows. Hard to tell without knowing what exactly it is you're getting. OTOH, if you've actually heard the system in its entirety, and that is exactly what he's selling you, and if you have the dosh, then by all means, gopher rhett.

[barmar46]

Hey Dusty,

Such helpful info and "go git um" encouragement." Before I take step 1, sending the check today for the Examplar, something came up, last minute that may be another camel or could be snake or well nothing at all...As the seller and I were discussing Deal # 2, he brought up that the Exemplar mod had no rubber feet and that there were simple solutions. I kind of pushed him to provide them himself. Those triangular supports under the cd player and the wood/cork ones under the piece of butcher block. He told me retail prices and I again pushed him to throw it all in for another $100(sans the butcher block). Orignially when I wrote several ?s on Audiogon about the condition of this item and he had every opportunity(responsibility?) to state the rubber feet were missing, well he did not do so.

Is this a deal killer, or no big deal? I have committed to making the purchase and was so into the Deal #2 that I did not bring up the discrepancy with him yesterday.

[grawk]

I wouldn't be concerned about a lack of rubber feet, personally.

[Dusty Chalk]

Absolutely not a deal killer. Again, he's just trying to make more money from you (and you're correct in recognizing that he should have brought it up before now). Just buy some racquetball balls and cut them in half. When you can afford them, go back and buy some brass cones, and decide which you like better -- it's that whole coupling vs. decoupling argument all over again. If you have something ultra-solid, you want to couple to that, otherwise you want to decouple (oversimplified, and IMHO). Decoupling will almost always help (unless you happen to already have had a very nicely coupled setup), hence why I recommend the racquetball balls.

[riceboy]

For Eddie Current, the only option you have identified that is a current production option is the Zana Deux, and as Nate points out it is unclear whether there is a current, current run. The ZD is a very nice amp, but I don't think it comes close to the 307A. It is not as flexible, it is not balanced, it does not reach the resolution and detail and transparency that are easily rendered by the 307A. I have always thought of the ZD as a somewhat soft focus, warm style of amp that emphasizes musicality at a cost. I thought of the SP MPX3 in its original 6SN7 stock model in much the same way. The HD-2 was made once for JP#s and has not been repeated and I don't think it could be because Craig does not have the NOS Tango transformers he used in it.

As for the TTVJ/Millett 307A amp being bright, I disagree entirely. It is detailed (as Dusty predicted one might say) but it is not bright or etched or edgy at all. Source is going to dictate sound more than the amp as it is currently configured, and your Exemplar Denon source should be pretty warm on its own. Plus, there are tube-rolling options that could have an impact on the overall sound. I enjoyed my time with the 307A immensely and listened to it almost exclusively over my SP SDS-XLR except when comparing the amps. There have also been impressions from 4N6 and Riceboy who were comparing the 307A to the B52, which is a warm and "big sounding" amp. I am not sure where 4N6 came out, but I think the B52 is on its way out.

When I listened to 4n6s 307A I felt that it was very detailed and resolving. It wasn't bright, like say a Grado in regards to the highs. Everything sounded very clear and amazing with my woodied SR225. Of course I loved the R10s with the 307A. Overall the 307a is a wonderful sounding amp. I hope more get to hear it as well. I did post my impressions of the amp in the 307a thread as well.

[4N6]

By comparing the TTVJ vs. B-52 vs. Cary SLP-05 vs. Cary SLI-80 they all sound different and mate best with different headphones. The TTVJ, as mentioned earlier is NOT a "bright" amp, it just does not roll off the treble like the others in the comparison. It is the most neutral amp I have heard (also comparing my old Headroom maxed-out Desktop amp), and mated well with ALL the headphones I used it with. The B-52 is warmer, with slightly rolled-off highs. This makes the TTVJ seem "brighter" than the B-52, but it is definitiely not "bright."

If you can afford it, the TTVJ is wonderful and the best I have heard.

And as far as Reks' comments about getting a good set of speakers, well, he is right. Problem is, the price/performance ratio of headphones vs. speakers HIGHLY favors headphones. To get equally "high-end," full range sound from speakers you need to spend a lot of money, and then you need to consider room effects and amplification.

Worth it in the end? Only you can say. But if you have the money and a dedicated room to properly place the speakers in, then I would go for speakers. If you don't have the ability to set the speakers up properly, with a dedicated space and sufficient distance from rear and side walls, then they will NOT perform up to their ability and headphones are a better way to go.

Good luck in the hunt!

Looking for an "endrig" in "till death do us part" or "till my ship comes in." Was leaning toward Pete's new Monster TTVJ but concerned about it's brightness and reports that it may not be as involving as some other choices and well it is $6000! Then there's the BHSE but that marries me to electrostatic when the Monster has such dynamic versatility. And now I'm hearing alot about Craig's amps: the Nautalus and the Balancing Act. However I just talked to him yesterday and they really seem to be on the back burner in terms of production and distribution. So that leaves the Zana Deux and the HD-2(which I know nothing about but have only heard about in passing) I know the ZD is significantly less money the all the amps above.

But...my bottom line criteria is SQ: full, rich warm sound. Not too bright (certainly no harsh or edgy highs, no boomy or muddy bass) I listen to acoustic singer acoustic guitar stuff and jazz primarily. I want things to sound natual and immediate. Humam and alive. I don't want to even know there is any gear between me and the music/musicians.

Oh, my source is a Exemplar Denon tube stage output modded cd player. I currently have two bal headphones: HD650s(Equinox), K701s(APureSound)

Chime in, if you please~

And yes, I know some of this is redundant from other threads but now that I have my source I can focus on my amp.

[jinp6301]

i disagree completely. i compared my former MPX3, which was an upgraded unit (Solens and Jensens and and silver wire and a stepped attenuator, if i remember correctly) using 5687s or 6BX7s for output, with an assortment of input tubes (the 6SN7s on output for HP-2s don't work out well) with Absorbine's ZD, and the ZD was just a completely different animal. transparent and nimble and organic. musical yes, but not at the cost of the rest of the musical spectrum. i really liked that MPX3 an awful lot, but as my tastes shifted (from warm and romantic to natural and transparent), i came to realize that it was very colored. the ZD isn't particularly colored, to me. it's the perfect amp for the HP-2s, at least to the best of my experience. the Supras i've heard were more in line with the ZD (and some of Earl's Supra experiments have been superlative), but still rather more colored than the Zana.

I have to agree with voltron on this one. I took a big chunk of time listening to the hp-2/zana combo (had to hear the reks recommended combo ) and while it was good, it wasnt as "natural" sounding as some of the other gear I heard it with. I thought the Zana lacked a little bass control compared to the Krell amp or the modded Melos I heard it with. The zana wasnt a clear window to the music as some of the other amps I've heard it with. Not to say it was a bad amp though, it was clearly better then 95%+ of the competition.

and damn the hp-2 rocks, its one of those forget youre listening to the gear headphones.

[jinp6301]

Uhh an emm labs sacd transport/dac stack. Its something expensive so I'm pretty sure the source wasnt the problem

[jinp6301]

it was a EMM Labs Cdsd + Dac6e. But the thing that I liked about the zana was that it sounded great with everything. It might not have been perfect but an amp that can make anything from the Qualias to the RS-1s to R-10s sound great deserves to be recognized

[MaloS]

I listen to mostly rock and bop and I'm engaged to my electrostat system

I'm dating one and checking out her sister ;-)

[Augsburger]

well die in a fire.

i certainly didn't think the Zana was lacking in bass control. what source was used? just ask anyone at that meet how enthralled i was in A Love Supreme with that combo. i also think that extreme bass control is overrated, as it sounds unnatural to my ears. bass often should have some bloom.

yeah, the HP-2s are killer.

I agree with Reks, I have never felt the Zana lacked bass control in fact I felt it had excellent bass control. Granted I am not as experienced as some of you, and my A/B listening experiences with the Zana are very limited but I have heard the Zana sourced with 909's Reimyo and Digipete's Denon and I still feel the Zana and Digi's Dyna are some of the best I have heard in my limited experience.

[morphsci]

... But the thing that I liked about the zana was that it sounded great with everything. It might not have been perfect but an amp that can make anything from the Qualias to the RS-1s to R-10s sound great deserves to be recognized

I agree with Reks, I have never felt the Zana lacked bass control in fact I felt it had excellent bass control. Granted I am not as experienced as some of you, and my A/B listening experiences with the Zana are very limited but I have heard the Zana sourced with 909's Reimyo and Digipete's Denon and I still feel the Zana and Digi's Dyna are some of the best I have heard in my limited experience.

I have only heard the Zana at meets but I too have heard it with a good number of phones and it always sounds good. It also made my K340's sound the best I have heard from an SE amp. No bass control issues there as far as I could tell. Usually you are making excuses for amps you hear at meets due to the noise, yada, yada, yada. Not the Zana. If it was a balanced amp, I would have purchased one as soon as I returned home from the last meet.