DAC Shopping, help!

[compuryan]

Well I just sold off all my old stuff and I am without a system and have a handful of cash. My budget is $1000. I am considering these:

1. a new Lavry DA10 - $975

2. a used, modded Benchmark DAC1 - $825

AudiogoN ForSale: Benchmark DAC1 silver

3. A modded bel canto DAC2+ - $750

on head-fi here: FS: bel canto DAC2+ (Legendary Edwood balanced mod) - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio

4. A used, unmodded Benchmark DAC1 - $760

AudiogoN ForSale: Benchmark dac1 blk non-usb

5. Other suggestions?

thank you! I was really leaning to the Lavry for a while but now I am not quite sure. Tell me what you think.

[tkam]

save up a bit and buy the northstar m192 mk2 that i'm selling?

[Filburt]

I personally would pass on the DA10. I know it's popular on head-fi, but I was seriously unimpressed with the DA10 whenever I've tried it. It has this character of being simultaneously stale yet weirdly aggressive at times; I think possibly due to the use of OP275s for I/V and buffer, which tend to have this characteristic. I don't find the 275 to have a particularly good design overall. The loop gain seems to fall off too quickly, so distortion rises pretty quickly with frequency, it has a decent amount of input capacitance which ends up inducing distortion at the input, and the VAS doesn't seem particularly linear to begin with.

I liked the Benchmark DAC1 better, but that isn't saying much. It's got kind of a bland sound to it as well. I don't know why people call this neutral. I wonder if Benchmark tried measuring IMD or DIM (TIM for instance) at >6KHz or something of that sort, or if the 'transparency' claim was based just on running some basic THD+N plots.

If value is really a concern, I'd say you're much better off looking at a good quality budget DAC from the mid-late 90s like something from Parts Connection (Assemblage, Sonic Frontiers) or Parasound (such as the D/AC-1100 or 1600) that uses one of the high-end R-2R dacs and has a solid analog stage design. Modernising the parts in the output stage can be very helpful as there has been a lot of advancement in op-amps since then (though modern dacs rarely take advantage of this) and substantial gains can be made for low cost (e.g. ~$30-50). D/A converters like the PCM1704, PCM1702, and PCM63, in my opinion and experience, offer substantially higher audio performance than the delta sigma chips used nowadays, especially versus the voltage out type (e.g. CS*, AK*, WM*), though the AD1955 is good as far as delta sigma chips go (though not impervious to poor use...e.g. DA10).

[compuryan]

One of my concerns is that I will be living in a dorm starting a little over a month from now and I won't really have room for a setup like the Perpetual Technology stuff. It looks really neat though.

I also need an amplifier because I just sold of the only one I have.

I am leaning toward the modded DAC1. Although I have read many reviews claiming the DA10 is superior, that would give me an extra ~$150 vs. the Lavry to upgrade my cables, possibly the internals of the DAC1, or put $ toward an actual amplifier and not just the one onboard the DAC1.

[compuryan]

Have you personally heard the perpetual tech stuff? I read a couple review where people were just stunned at the quality. Its a really great deal too. It would leave me room to buy an amplifier

[Filburt]

One of my concerns is that I will be living in a dorm starting a little over a month from now and I won't really have room for a setup like the Perpetual Technology stuff. It looks really neat though.

I also need an amplifier because I just sold of the only one I have.

I am leaning toward the modded DAC1. Although I have read many reviews claiming the DA10 is superior, that would give me an extra ~$150 vs. the Lavry to upgrade my cables, possibly the internals of the DAC1, or put $ toward an actual amplifier and not just the one onboard the DAC1.

Several of the Parts Connection dacs are as small or smaller than the DAC1. They show up on Audiogon and eBay fairly often. Look for Sonic Frontiers Transdac and Assemblage DAC-1, DAC-2, or DAC-2.6.

[compuryan]

I think I am gonna buy this P-3A, P-1, and power supply. I might try pairing it with a Little Dot MKV (cause I need to buy an amp).

Anyway, has anyone else ever listened to these items from Perpetual Technologies? I'd love to hear some more impressions aside from what I've read.

[PFKMan23]

Never heard the Perpetual Tech DAC that you're looking at but I would get one of the DACs that Filburt is recommending. In my experience the stuff that he recommends really does sound quite nice and as a bonus, doesn't cost nearly as much money.

[compuryan]

whoa how about the Stello DA100 Signature?

AudiogoN ForSale: Stello DA 100 Signature

[Filburt]

whoa how about the Stello DA100 Signature?

AudiogoN ForSale: Stello DA 100 Signature

I thought the DA100 was OK but nothing especially amazing. If I recall correctly, they use kind of cheap aluminum electrolytics coupling caps on the output of the AK4395, which is already limited by its switched-capacitor output. Then it goes to a very aggressive lowpass filter using cheap JRC NE5532s, then finally to the discrete buffer stage...but at that point it's sort of like "why bother?"

Still, it sounds pretty decent. I don't think I'd shell out what it costs for one, though.

[compuryan]

There is a transdac on ebay here: SONIC FRONTIERS Trans DAC MIB - eBay (item 250267149272 end time Jul-12-08 16:12:16 PDT)

for $500

[Filburt]

There is a transdac on ebay here: SONIC FRONTIERS Trans DAC MIB - eBay (item 250267149272 end time Jul-12-08 16:12:16 PDT)

for $500

I usually see them show up for less, including on AGon. However, if you're in a hurry this might work. You could try using the "Make Offer" option. If you do decide to get one, there are some basic mods you should probably have someone do for you (e.g. op-amps, some bypassing stuff on the rails) if you can't do it yourself. THS4031 for I/V, AD825 for LPF/Buffer. Swap the 10uF bypass for the buffer for either 10uF tantalum or 100uF Panasonic FM, and parallel some 0.1uF X7R with them (e.g. soldered across the electrolytic cap's pins on the bottom). You can ask jp11801 what he thinks of my old Transdac (which now resides with him since I picked up an Assemblage DAC-2.6).

[jp11801]

I can honestly say this little dac is pretty amazing. Many dacs I have listened to or owned have glare of high end hash that you pick up on after listening a bit. The trans dac while not the last word in detail has musicality in spades where it counts in the midrange. It is one of the most musical dacs I have heard and although I am a frequent gear buyer/seller this dac will have a place in my rig for a long time. $500 while worth it for the sound you can get is about $150 over market price. You are not going to touch this quality for the price and I would take it over the dacs you listed originally

[Filburt]

Forgot to mention, upgrading to K-grade on the dacs (e.g. PCM1702P-K) did improve things as well (that's what I had done in mine, now jp's ). It's about 55 bucks in parts, so you may or may not want to include that as well with respect to keeping costs down.

[hadden]

I liked the Benchmark DAC1 better, but that isn't saying much. It's got kind of a bland sound to it as well. I don't know why people call this neutral. I wonder if Benchmark tried measuring IMD or DIM (TIM for instance) at >6KHz or something of that sort, or if the 'transparency' claim was based just on running some basic THD+N plots.

Yes boring anemic sound from the Dac1. No Bass. I don't get it. Do people actually listen, I wonder? My Senns didn't like the headphone amp in it either.

[compuryan]

One thing I've learned about hifi audio is that its always best to spend a little more than you planned on.

I think I might be able to afford the Cambridge Audio 840c. I've read a lot and many many people find it superior to the Benchmark, the Lavry, and even the Stello DA220. And it comes with a CD player (yay).

[jp11801]

I have also been shopping for a second dac as I have set up a stat rig in the bedroom. Not sure where the trans dac will reside yet but its small form factor favors the bedroom. Right now I am looking at the:

Theta dacs from the gen V tor the pro basic lll

I am also looking at the Levinson 36 dac but it is $1900

Anyone heard the theta?

[deepak]

I have also been shopping for a second dac as I have set up a stat rig in the bedroom. Not sure where the trans dac will reside yet but its small form factor favors the bedroom. Right now I am looking at the:

Theta dacs from the gen V tor the pro basic lll

I am also looking at the Levinson 36 dac but it is $1900

Anyone heard the theta?

You should try and snag a Denon DA-500. I think the sound would be right up your alley. They're cheap too.

I would post internal pics of mine, but I've only managed to strip one of the screws

[jp11801]

You should try and snag a Denon DA-500. I think the sound would be right up your alley. They're cheap too.

I would post internal pics of mine, but I've only managed to strip one of the screws

I've looked for these off and on and have not found one. Looks like back in march there was one on canuck audiomart for $125.

[en480c4]

I'd still love to mod one of my DA-500s and then do some comparisons between stock & modded. Knowing it's got the PCM1702, it seems like it would be worth the effort.

[deepak]

I've looked for these off and on and have not found one. Looks like back in march there was one on canuck audiomart for $125.

I've seen them more frequently on Ebay rather than Audiogon (or other hifi forums).

$125 is a good price. You should easily be able to find one under $250.

[hYdrociTy]

AudiogoN ForSale: Perpetual Technology P-1A, P-3A with

X2

[compuryan]

I settled on the modded Benchmark DAC1 (I know you're all going to kill me!) but I have a few reasons. First, it has a decent integrated amp, so I'm not going to buy an amp until I have a lot more money to get a really nice one.

Also the guy I bought it from said that before he upgraded to the modded dac1 he actually had the perpetual tech p3a/p1a/monolithic ps setup and found the dac1 to be a clear step up. He said that compared to the stock dac1, the modded one had a clearer and wider sound. He even said that he compared it with a bel canto dac3 and found it relatively close in sound.

Lastly, there are a lot people out there who have modded (or paid to have modified) their dac1's, and if I ever choose to, it will not be that difficult to find things to do to improve the sound.

[barmar46]

Dac/Preamp/Vol control recommendation Part Deux: I have bought a great pair of ATC 20-2 speakers(ah, no amp required) as well as an Exemplar Denon 3910 tube stage out mod. Now in taking to various ATC reps I an getting various different stories about what else I need in terms of components and what brands (I want warm acoustic immediacy. Highs not too bright or edgy nor rolled of, balanced mids, and bass present and accounted for but not tight not over stated, boomy, or muddy.) So at first I was told I need some kind of volume/gain thing-a-magig(I didn't quite get the concept but I was so excited about the deal I got on the speakers being high and ignorant felt allright for awhile. Then it seemed this volume control had to be tied to a preamp. And finally the consultant who I most trusted (he seemed lest invest in selling me a bunch of shit and more in provide me a minmailist approach to getting me started and listening myself to my rig so I could learn as I go) suggested a Lavry Dac(which by the way he did not sell himself.) He said plugging into the dac would solve all the problems and it had a remote volume control ta boot. Also as a side note, he suggested I get very basic cables and power chords to start and let both the speakers and my listening break in so I could grow into tweaks my experiences taught me what I really wanted.

So is the dac off the cd player into the active speakers the chain of love? (And this guy is a heavy duty pro in music production in television sound producition who came hightly recommended the the American distributer for ATC speakers.) Or is something amiss? Also he felt Larvy had a warmer, maybe more neutral sound than the Dac10 which he thought colored the music more than I wanted? He gave is opinion but he was in no way pushy. I told him I would run this all by my friends.

[Filburt]

I settled on the modded Benchmark DAC1 (I know you're all going to kill me!) but I have a few reasons. First, it has a decent integrated amp, so I'm not going to buy an amp until I have a lot more money to get a really nice one.

Also the guy I bought it from said that before he upgraded to the modded dac1 he actually had the perpetual tech p3a/p1a/monolithic ps setup and found the dac1 to be a clear step up. He said that compared to the stock dac1, the modded one had a clearer and wider sound. He even said that he compared it with a bel canto dac3 and found it relatively close in sound.

Lastly, there are a lot people out there who have modded (or paid to have modified) their dac1's, and if I ever choose to, it will not be that difficult to find things to do to improve the sound.

Hey, it's your money, man. I don't think the DAC1 is complete garbage; I just don't think it's a good value. It's decent stock I suppose, but it's not exactly a great platform for upgrading. There are some things that can be done, but the design overall closes the doors on some of the most effective modifications that don't involve simply replacing the whole output stage and at least part of the power supply.

By this I mean, for example, you can't do much about stuff like the analogue bandpass filter, other than changing the shape (which is not recommended unless you have a scope and a spec analyser), so no opportunity to put in something good like Polystyrene caps. It looks like they use NP0 ceramic filter caps, which work...OK. When I've checked them in filters on an analyser, they show pretty decent THD+N (maybe about the same as mylar), but I suspect the DIM products are poor. Polystyrene and Polypropylene are considerably better performing materials, but there really is no way to use them in this device as those caps are through-hole. You could maybe try PPS since that comes in SMT package, and it does an OK job (better than NP0, worse than the other two). I got a slight glimpse of some of the problems with NP0 recently but I'm still not sure of the specific problem involved. This is an unfortunate limitation of the design, as the filter design can have a substantial bearing on final performance (though not of the magnitude of the op-amps used).

If you really want to go the mod route, I'd suggest focusing on the output stage almost exclusively, other than making adjustments to the bypassing or other power related stuff to keep the devices stable. Meaning if you're not wanting to throw out the output stage design, replace the op-amps, and maybe increase the size of the bypass caps to ~100uF and use 0.1uF to ground if it isn't that already, and then put somewhere between 0.1 and 10uF across the rails, depending on the needs of the device. Still, a nagging problem with this design is options. THS4031 is probably of the best (if not the best) for i/v, but you can't use it because of the DAC1 using all duals. There is a dual (THS4032), but that does suffer from crosstalk in the MHz range and it's harder to get stable IME. The layout on the DAC1 looks like it may be suboptimal for implementing this chip, but maybe with some shrewd use of extra or modified bypassing (perhaps across the rails), it could be made stable. You may have to swap those X7R bypass caps out for PPS or NP0 as the microphonic characteristics of X7R seem to cause problems with the 4031. However, the LPF is still going to be a problem area, since most of the worthwhile chips for this are single-channel only. For buffer I guess you could try the AD8022 (if your supply voltage is not above 24V; it can be used for I/V also) or AD8599, but either may require some adjustment to the bypassing scheme.

It may be worth noting that I've seen a decent amount of mods that are probably not worth pursuing from the standpoint of value, such as messing with the clocking or replacing all the diodes or something like that. You could try to improve the regulation, but a real effective attack on that problem would involve a pretty invasive process; pretty much the same deal with anything worth doing with regard to clocking. Try not to get caught up in the mod hype and bleed out several hundred dollars into the thing; you're better off just getting a better platform at that point. This may include, even among the options you proposed, the 840c, although I still think a Parts Connection dac would deliver higher price/performance ratio.

Also, not to put too fine a point on it, but did you expect the seller wasn't going to talk up the thing he was selling?