Krell SACD Standard / Marantz SA-11S1

[postjack]

I'm still doing research as to what type of hirez player I want. While a universal unit would be cool, the fact is that I have tons of SACDs but only a handful of DVD-A's. So in addition to universal (modded) units, I am considering stock SACD players. I see the Marantz SA-11S1 and Krell SACD Standard mentioned quite a bit, but have not really heard anything about their performance from anyone whose opinion I trust. So give me your opinions, people I trust! Anyone ever own or hear or know someone who has owned or heard one of these players? Or even better, are there any other SACD only players you'd like to recommend? My price range is <$2000, and I want something that can hold its own against the 840C. Thanks!

[luvdunhill]

oooh another recommend what you own thread... in which case, I cast my ballot for Muse Electronics, i.e. Model 12, Erato II, Polyhymnia if you need SACD...

[guzziguy]

Another possibility is an eXemplar modified Denon. And yes, I own an eXemplar Denon 2900. It's best for Redbook so might not be what you are looking for. It does a good job with SACD and DVD-A but there are better players for those formats.

[luvdunhill]

why not just do a poll of what players people currently own, and then choose the most popular?

[purk]

I would not get the Krell SACD standard. I believe Krell use a problematic Philips transport which is also featured in the MF Trivista, and Philips SACD1000. Stay away from these units.

[postjack]

I would not get the Krell SACD standard. I believe Krell use a problematic Philips transport which is also featured in the MF Trivista, and Philips SACD1000. Stay away from these units.

Thanks purk, this is the kind of info I'm looking for.

[luvdunhill]

found a review for you:

Krell SACD Standard "Mark II": Impressions & Review. Pics! - SH Forums

[postjack]

found a review for you:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=87837

mark does provide an interesting piece of information in there:

As you may or may not know, the first run of the SACD Standard used the now imfamous Phillips "Daisy" tray system/transport, the same one that failed on all those early Phillips SACD players. So too, did many of the early Krell SACD Standards fail, refusing to play discs or making horrible noises while attempting to do so. As a result, the Krell went out of production for almost a year while they re-ingineered it with a new drive/transport and made a few other very minor updates/upgrades (oh, yeah and bumped the price up $500 to $4500). The drive/transport swap and the other mods have (apparently)made some subtle sonic differences (for the better) according to people who've owned both. The new drive has no known issues to date.

The "Mark II" player (not an oficial designation, just to differentiate it from the original) began production around March of 2005. So any player made subsequent to that time has the new drive/transport.

So it looks like the transport issues were resolved in the Mk2 players. There are players for sale on agon with this designation.

[Filburt]

Either seems like a reasonably interesting choice. It would have been nice had Krell used the PCM1704 but I guess this needed 192KHz spec'd support? I'm not sure. From what I understand, the 1704 actually runs at wider bandwidth and will apparently take up to 768KHz input, so I would think you could do 192KHz + 4X OS. Oh well.

The other thing is, at least looking at the board pictures I've seen, I can't figure out how the Krell does I/V if it's not op-amps, which is confusing considering the really beefy discrete output stage (e.g. seems like output stage would be overkill for the I/V). If it does use op-amps, it might be worth looking into upgrading them with something higher performance depending on what's in there. I like using the THS4031/32 for I/V. The Marantz looks like it's a similar config (op-amp I/V, discrete output stage) but I'm not sure which is better between the converters being used (the NPC vs the BB), and it looks like the Krell output stage design might be more sophisticated.

[luvdunhill]

mark does provide an interesting piece of information in there:

So it looks like the transport issues were resolved in the Mk2 players. There are players for sale on agon with this designation.

The current version is Mk3, as I know someone in town who just got a Mk3 back from Krell. Excellent customer support, at least in his case. Amazing sounding player, IMHO.

[luvdunhill]

The other thing is, at least looking at the board pictures I've seen, I can't figure out how the Krell does I/V if it's not op-amps, which is confusing considering the really beefy discrete output stage (e.g. seems like output stage would be overkill for the I/V).

I thought they used passive I/V. Do you have any pics handy? I suppose I can crack the one open down the street and take a look.

[purk]

I think the transport problem is only existed on Mark I. I almost bought the Krell back for $1300 three months ago. Luckily I didn't follow through with the deal. What sad though is all those pretty MF Trivista will soon be just big paperweights.

[Pars]

I thought they used passive I/V. Do you have any pics handy? I suppose I can crack the one open down the street and take a look.

I don't think Krell uses passive. Pedja seems to think they have used AD844s in the past with discrete buffers. This could be all discrete I/V and buffer. I take it the PCM1704 is an I-out DAC? Discrete would make the most sense if so...

[Filburt]

I thought they used passive I/V. Do you have any pics handy? I suppose I can crack the one open down the street and take a look.

Jeez; I'd hope not. 1704 + Passive is bad news; that chip is not designed to be used like that and you can get a boatload of distortion by doing it. It'll probably still sound OK, but you're really squandering the potential of the 1704 by doing it. If you don't want to do an integrator w/ NFB (e.g. op-amp) you can do a current steering i/v which just steers the current into a resistor, so that way the converter sees near-zero impedance on its output but you're still relying on a resistor on the end for i/v.

The AD844's design allows it to be used in a common base config as far as I understand. I've used the AD844 before, both in the standard manner and I think at least similar to how Pedja does it. Seems to work okay, but I've found I'm not a big fan of CFB op-amps for the most part. For I/V, I've had great luck with the THS4031, and liked the AD825 (though I get better results as a filter/buffer). AD829 and AD8021 seem like they might work well, too. My DAC, though, will hopefully soon have a current steering I/V in it.

[purk]

Postjack,

You might want to shoot Tom Hankins a PM. He had the SA-11S1 in his system for awhile. I don't think he was very impress by it.

[Filburt]

Oops; I meant to say PCM1738, though it's essentially the same deal with the 1704; arguably an even bigger problem.

[kevin gilmore]

Have one of the original 50 handmade in usa krell units. Love it. Not a single problem with

it as it has one of the hand made transports. More than 4 years old now, and not a single

skip or disc error. If/when it dies i will get the evolution.

All the new units have, or can be upgraded to a problem free transport. The sound is what

you are after, and its typical krell.

[tom_hankins]

A good friend had the Krell MKI when they came out. Sound was great, but within 4-5 months the transport (which was already noisey) stopped reading most disks. he sent it back, same thing again. Got the MKII upgrade, it also had transport problems. I think he shot it. The MKII upgrade never fixed the problem. Now the MKIII uses the transport from the Evo. 505 SACD player and from what I have read they seem to work now. And sound even better than the original and MKII. But (if you can get one)they have gone up to $6K in price. The SACD standard in any form have now been discontinued by Krell.

The Marantz SA11s1 is not worth owning IMO. Unfortunatly I wasted my money to find this out. Lifeless, slow and soft. If you like your music dead and boring this is the CDP for you. They also have a record of noisey transports while playing sacd. Which mine did too.

I would risk buying a broken Krell sacd standard over a Marantz SA11s1 that worked perfect..

In the $2K range I would look for one of the Modwrights or Exemplars. Also if youy are going to use alot of sacd the Sony SCD-1 with a couple slight mods is good player. I have owned three different Sonys from modwright, and heard Purks Exemplar and they and the SCD-1 are worth checking out.

[kevin gilmore]

I have a sony scd-1. First $1000 gets it. Guaranteed not to load half

the discs you have. And then i never want to hear about it again.

[luvdunhill]

Filburt/Pars:

My Muse uses quad PCM1704+DF1704 with passive I/V. Here is one write-up with good measurements:

http://www.museelectronics.com/HFN_Jan.pdf

[hYdrociTy]

I have a sony scd-1. First $1000 gets it. Guaranteed not to load half

the discs you have. And then i never want to hear about it again.

If you still have it by the end of july I'll take it.

[Pars]

Jeez; I'd hope not. 1704 + Passive is bad news; that chip is not designed to be used like that and you can get a boatload of distortion by doing it. It'll probably still sound OK, but you're really squandering the potential of the 1704 by doing it. If you don't want to do an integrator w/ NFB (e.g. op-amp) you can do a current steering i/v which just steers the current into a resistor, so that way the converter sees near-zero impedance on its output but you're still relying on a resistor on the end for i/v.

The AD844's design allows it to be used in a common base config as far as I understand. I've used the AD844 before, both in the standard manner and I think at least similar to how Pedja does it. Seems to work okay, but I've found I'm not a big fan of CFB op-amps for the most part. For I/V, I've had great luck with the THS4031, and liked the AD825 (though I get better results as a filter/buffer). AD829 and AD8021 seem like they might work well, too. My DAC, though, will hopefully soon have a current steering I/V in it.

Current out DACs really want to see as close to a dead short on the output as you can get, sub 1 ohm. A resistor large enough to get the required output voltage isn't going to be close to that

Most opamps can't get that low even with feedback and rise as freq. goes up because of feedback/group bandwidth. The THS403x was going to be my next choice for opamp to try, but I built a discrete current steering I/V which I love. No more opamps for me.

[Pars]

Re: PCM1704 and passive I/V

http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1520

Gordon Rankin of Wavelength Audio, last post in thread.

The OP was looking for someone to change out the PCM he blowed up real good on HF also

[justin]

I have a sony scd-1. First $1000 gets it. Guaranteed not to load half

the discs you have. And then i never want to hear about it again.

Take 2 of them, strip them out, build the ultra tube electrostatic amp in them (PSU + Amp)

Cheaper than getting a box like that made. Use the front window for a backlit logo like Manley

[luvdunhill]

Re: PCM1704 and passive I/V

http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1520

Gordon Rankin of Wavelength Audio, last post in thread.

The OP was looking for someone to change out the PCM he blowed up real good on HF also

Muse / Kevin Halverson uses some other gadgetry in there as well. Check out that article I posted, near the end for the technical description...

also, what does "best I can do" imply? That passive I/V sounded best with the 1704? I'd agree with this statement if so.