Kabeer Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 I don't know how many of you are familiar with the T30 enclosure. Its shape allows little space for damping, unless you want to compress the wire. I'm considering to change the single 6mm medium density disc for two 3mm discs, one of medium density felt and the other of high density. I'd be thankful if any of you could suggest what would be better to get a bit less bass and helping the treble to "develop" so the whole thing is more balanced. Would you use the higher density felt closer to the driver or would you use the mid density one in that place? Would you use some reflecting material (like aluminum foil) between them? I know I can try it myself and then reporting, but these cans are 30 years old and I don't think the old plastic frame will stand many unscrewing-screwing cycles on the two points the driver is hold to it, so I'd rather try first the things that should work better to get the results I'd like. Advanced thanks for your hints Well from my experience of the NAD's today, I think if you put full proper Circumaural pads on them, it should boost the trebles enough, and kill a tiny bit of the bass. Then try bjarnetv's damping scheme for his T30, he posted it on headfi. Or smeggy has done a radical mod on the T30 so he might know a scheme. But otherwise... for damping, get the most DENSE and thin felt you can possibly find and make sure it seals against the driver (tape its edges to the driver). Make sure the ENTIRE internal cup chamber is either filled with felt, or the walls covered with dense felt. To kill internal wave reflections. If you find you really really need a super thin damping layer. Try buying some micropore tape like JadeEast mentioned on the ortho thread. Its about as thin a layer as you can possibly get. Hope that all helps!!! Remember its not JUST about controlling the freq response, its about damping them to properly control the backwave and internal reflections. Only AFTER controlling those waves, should you think of tuning the freq response (and by then the sound will already be nearly in control)
mypasswordis Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 Circumaural + moar trebles = win. I think I do have to at least try a large driver ortho some time in my life. I've tried the largest electrostatic headphone driver and think it's absolutely fantastic. Bigger does seem to be better in the case of drivers.
deepak Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 IMO that's a huge over simplification which I disagree with.
Torpedo Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 Hi Kabeer, Thanks for your reply. For resonances and backwave control I think the thick felt is working irreproachably, I haven't noticed any of the minor resonances I was able to hear before, and the bass is as tight, fast and clean as I could wish. I hate to recognize it, but I'd say it's more proper bass than PS-1's quality wise, mostly for the unbelievable resolution the T30s have there. However I could try the high density felt closer to the driver and adding a second layer to fill completely the back chamber as it is now with the thick disc. I'm waiting to get some big pads to get the same effect than I managed when trying the CD3000's pads. I know it works wonders to bring out the treble and providing stage depth and "air". However the closer I can get to that just by damping the driver properly, the better will be the final result IMO. It's just that I'd like to save as many trials dismounting the driver as possible to avoid damaging the enclosure.
mypasswordis Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 It is a huge oversimplification but there are many many things that a large driver can handle without outside help like bass that allow for a headphone configuration with the best possible sound. With little drivers, especially in the case of orthos, there's always a balance to be figured out between bass and treble, and usually a compromise is reached (ie missing a bit of extension on both ends). This is also why most orthos are closed+vented with supraaural pads and have small earcup volume, which has to do with the limited excursion of planars.
deepak Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 It is a huge oversimplification but there are many many things that a large driver can handle without outside help like bass that allow for a headphone configuration with the best possible sound. With little drivers, especially in the case of orthos, there's always a balance to be figured out between bass and treble, and usually a compromise is reached (ie missing a bit of extension on both ends). This is also why most orthos are closed+vented with supraaural pads and have small earcup volume. And yet the most balanced orthos are the ones with average sized drivers. The T50v2 (and clones) with these massive drivers have extremely poor treble response. In the world of electrostats, where the SR-007 driver isn't that big, it probably has the best bass, extension and depth of any electrostatic headphone. It's all good in theory that large drivers = good. But it has to translate into real world examples as well.
mypasswordis Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 (edited) It's the drivers in coordination with the configuration of the rest of the headphone that makes a headphone sound good. Nothing can substitute for good old common sense and actually putting some thought into making a headphone sound good. The SR-007, being Stax's flagship TOTL headphone, has had some thought put into it. These ortho clones went for less than 100 bucks back in the 80s. It seems that adding some distance between the drivers and the ears solves this issue for the T50v2 clones, which makes sense. I'd like to see how well a T50v2 clone would do with SR-007 pads and a better non-resonant frame. And while the SR-007 driver can't necessarily be called big, it can't be called small either. Edited February 23, 2009 by mypasswordis I suck at being clear the first time around
Kabeer Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 Hi Kabeer, Thanks for your reply. For resonances and backwave control I think the thick felt is working irreproachably, I haven't noticed any of the minor resonances I was able to hear before, and the bass is as tight, fast and clean as I could wish. I hate to recognize it, but I'd say it's more proper bass than PS-1's quality wise, mostly for the unbelievable resolution the T30s have there. However I could try the high density felt closer to the driver and adding a second layer to fill completely the back chamber as it is now with the thick disc. I'm waiting to get some big pads to get the same effect than I managed when trying the CD3000's pads. I know it works wonders to bring out the treble and providing stage depth and "air". However the closer I can get to that just by damping the driver properly, the better will be the final result IMO. It's just that I'd like to save as many trials dismounting the driver as possible to avoid damaging the enclosure. Sounds like your well on the way!!! I havent heard a T30. So dunno how they would work. But the NAD's are BEASTS, with massive damping they barely gain treble sparkle (and I usually find most headphones have too much trebles ). Thats why I reccomended the circumaural pads, Iv got a bit of tuning left to do on mine, but thanks to Colin's circum reccomendation these things are sounding pretty killer!! If you add too much damping of course its possible you you reach nirvana , but if you overdamp you tend to find things will get a bit tooooooo crazy fast, and also you'll lose the deepest bass and soundstage. The goal of ortho damping is to reach the 'equilibrium point' of damping, where its neither underdamped or overdamped. But this is much easier said than done. To me though it sounds like your well on your way. Yes SEAL the densest layer near the driver, should make it much more effective. It seems that adding some distance between the drivers and the ears solves this issue for the T50v2 clones, which makes sense. I'd like to see how well a T50v2 clone would do with SR-007 pads and a better non-resonant frame. And while the SR-007 driver can't necessarily be called big, it can't be called small either. Well with a slightly smaller driver that is an evolution of design (the T50rp) this has already been done . Smeggy has used a more rigid housing and Omega pads, and supposedly its the bees balls! .
mypasswordis Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 Kabeer, did you ever get the TDS-16 (I think that's what the Russian large driver ortho was called)? If you did, how is it? Yeah, I'm willing to bet smeggy's T50RP sounds pretty good... He's gonna get another one to play with soon (mine).
Kabeer Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Kabeer, did you ever get the TDS-16 (I think that's what the Russian large driver ortho was called)? If you did, how is it? Yeah, I'm willing to bet smeggy's T50RP sounds pretty good... He's gonna get another one to play with soon (mine). Nope not yet.....supposedly Russian post is slow....hope it actually turns up. Heh Smeggy has many many treasures hiding in his cave. I think maybe after Wualta he is in possesion of the largest cache of orthos in the world .
mypasswordis Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 I hope it does, too. ericj's is probably pretty big as well, and don't forget about wertherDVX. I'm now back down to only two orthos, the T20v2 and the T40v1, the first two I started out with, so my collection is pretty much the opposite.
cetoole Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 And yet the most balanced orthos are the ones with average sized drivers. The T50v2 (and clones) with these massive drivers have extremely poor treble response. In the world of electrostats, where the SR-007 driver isn't that big, it probably has the best bass, extension and depth of any electrostatic headphone. It's all good in theory that large drivers = good. But it has to translate into real world examples as well. The T50v2 sure do have poor treble response, when damped as you had them. If I am getting my history right, Steve was the last person to open these up before I got them, and his initial damping layer had about the wind resistance of cheap craft felt, so about the lowest of anything in my ortho arsenal. They probably started rolling off around 5khz in that form, had absolutely no sparkle, or anything besides pounding bass. I currently have much, much denser stuff (glasses cleaning microfibre, followed by Ludo's black moorbrook cashmere), and the addition of circumaural pads and removal of the stock pads, which act as a bass lense, really help bring the treble out. Heck, I have had them once or twice that I bet MPWI here wouldnt find them too lacking. Well, maybe a bit, but he is crazy.
Kabeer Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Oh yes, you might notice I never mentioned reflex dots in my damping tips. Thats because I'm not a great fan of them, they are only a last resort kinda thing in my opinion. If used, I find they congest the entire sound. But some of the modders out there like it, so if you are gonna use it, use it after all of your damping efforts (and it sounds like you are actually pretty much there torperdo, from your descriptions of the sound). Btw, torpedo, do you have any other orthos?
Torpedo Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Yesterday night I listened to a couple of CDs damped just with the one layer of 6mm thick medium density felt. The sound is damn good timbre wise, voices really sound to die for, bass is deep, still excessive but damn fast and very resolving kind of "that must be a Fender Jazz bass and that other one a Fender Precision" completely separated from the kick drum and all other bass sources including synthetic ones. However the treble still lacks some shimmer and "air". Considering previous experience with other cans like Grados using flats, bowls, etc and the L3000 adding spacers under the pads, I'm not sure at all that placing the drivers further from the ears just brings out more treble. For sure it will do, but it might spoil the spot on timbre in the midrange. I tried other supra-aural thick pads I have around over the stock modified ones and midrange went away, not a good result, however with circumaurals which left the driver closer to the ear, it could be a spot on change. I'm going to try more aggressive damping with the high density felt closer to the driver and using the medium density one for the enclosure. We'll see, perhaps I lose some deep bass (just having less won't harm) but if midrange stays as is and I get more extended, shimmery and airy treble, I'll be done for damping. The T30 are my first and only pair of orthos. I'm liking them enough to try more, but not sure what. Maybe the T50V2 (Nad, etc) are too bassy for my taste, so I'd be better served with the newer T50RP, or I just keep an eye wide open for T50V1 or YH-1000 Kabeer, thanks for your observation about the reflex dots. I don't think I'd be using them so far. IMO reflecting the backwave back to the driver, which is a membrane completely separating the back from the front side, would cause more cancellations and trouble than benefits, maybe that explains why you find them congesting the sound. My intuition says that having a bit more damping on the driver by using more dense felt, can make it even faster and perhaps decreasing a bit the total amount of bass. If this works as expected, I'll be quite happy
Kabeer Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Well going to K240 pads, i found the vocals lost some intimateness. But the sacrifice wasnt soo bad, i think the shallower the circum pads are (ie closer to the driver) youll keep that intimate warm vocals intact. But your descriptions sound good, like youv made very very good damping progress. I havent heard the T30's just reports that they are v.bassy so I just assumed they would need similar steps to the NADs. But yes if your intuition is telling you to keep damping, definately go ahead and do it , it could very well yeild the results your looking for. (and i hope it does!) Btw, since you are wondering what other cans to look out for, not tooo many will have the amount of bass that the T30 has. But pretty much all yamaha's will exercise the wonderful vocal timbre you are describing . Its really a forte of certain orthos (Yamaha and some large serpentine drivers).
cetoole Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Yeah, I think my Yamahas have the most seductive vocals of any of my orthos.
Torpedo Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 An update. The high density felt is too high density, it damps the driver too much and while the treble shows off better, the midrange is still good and the bass is less present, I get dead dynamics. All the fun factor and jump into the music character I love in the T30s is gone Looks like I was very lucky on the first trial with the medium density felt using a thick 6mm layer, which provided the right amount of damping. I'm afraid that I can't get much better than yesterday just damping the drivers and the enclosure. Time to try other scheme. I hope the threads for the screws holding the drivers can stand such back and forth.
deepak Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 The T50RP are good when modded especially given how cheap they are. I will try some torture test music tomorrow.
Kabeer Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 An update. The high density felt is too high density, it damps the driver too much and while the treble shows off better, the midrange is still good and the bass is less present, I get dead dynamics. All the fun factor and jump into the music character I love in the T30s is gone Looks like I was very lucky on the first trial with the medium density felt using a thick 6mm layer, which provided the right amount of damping. I'm afraid that I can't get much better than yesterday just damping the drivers and the enclosure. Time to try other scheme. I hope the threads for the screws holding the drivers can stand such back and forth. Looks like you overdamped it. You could try a reflex dot/strip with the old good scheme. It might fix the problem for you...(if you arent too keen on changing pads)
Torpedo Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Well, I think I've got quite a decent result by using the 6mm medium density felt in a single disc which I keep held against the driver using just 3 small pieces of tape at 120
ludoo Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 An update. The high density felt is too high density, it damps the driver too much and while the treble shows off better, the midrange is still good and the bass is less present, I get dead dynamics. All the fun factor and jump into the music character I love in the T30s is gone Looks like I was very lucky on the first trial with the medium density felt using a thick 6mm layer, which provided the right amount of damping. I'm afraid that I can't get much better than yesterday just damping the drivers and the enclosure. Time to try other scheme. I hope the threads for the screws holding the drivers can stand such back and forth. Don't limit yourself to a full disc of felt. Sometimes what you need is a disc smaller than the driver, or a donut shape. If you think they might need more damping but the thick felt chokes them, try using it with less surface area.
Torpedo Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Oh no, not more options please hahaha I think I'm just going to try an additional layer of the medium density, and then using the phones for a while if this works well. Then if I still feel it can be pushed beyond, I might try a smaller disc of the high density felt. The damn thing is really dense.
Kabeer Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Oh no, not more options please hahaha I think I'm just going to try an additional layer of the medium density, and then using the phones for a while if this works well. Then if I still feel it can be pushed beyond, I might try a smaller disc of the high density felt. The damn thing is really dense. Heh yes Ludo is right. IF you ever feel like taking a complicated route and pulling some hair out...take a look at my post here: Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio - View Single Post - Orthodynamic Roundup
Salt Peanuts Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 The T50RP are good when modded especially given how cheap they are. I will try some torture test music tomorrow. I take it you're liking them thus far? I'm contemplating doing some more mods on mine, possibly adding blutak.
Kabeer Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 I take it you're liking them thus far? I'm contemplating doing some more mods on mine, possibly adding blutak. Blutak! You can never have enough of the stuff. Stick it on your ortho even if just for decoration!! Iv stuffed my HP-50 with bluetak everywhere hehe dont know why (none of it is actually for damping)
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