Best SS-amp Today; Cost NO Object?

[grawk]

sure about that?

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1484189#post1484189

Apple did some tweaking with core audio at one point, but certainly current versions of os x are bit perfect if you set them correctly. You have to start itunes after setting the bit rate, and then everything works hunky dory.

[luvdunhill]

eek... the Mac geeks are descending

I understand Apple is pretty serious about this, but then so are they about security and I'm on the phone with them *weekly* about new vulns in their software

I'd be interested to see some measurements myself.

[grawk]

I'm amazingly lazy, but it'd be easy enough to verify. Take a digital recorder. Hook it to the mac's optical out. Record a track. Transfer the track back to the mac. Invert it, and then sum it with the original track.

I'm not going to do the work, because I'm happy with the sound I get from my mac, but if you're concerned about the bit perfection of the mac, it's easy enough to test.

[Contrastique]

Thanx for the input. What exactly do I need to do to make this work flawlessly or is it just connecting (adjusting bitrate, wherever you change that) and that's that? Ow well, I still have to buy that MBP first

I haven't yet cleaned the inputselector and I'm not sure if that'll do the trick. Like 3 months ago the amp has been to a person who fixes this kind of stuff and cleaned it. Worked fine for the first few weeks but after that it appeared again. It's unfortunately a common problem for this amp.

I did, however, just attach the CDP via optical and as of now, the Ipod officially sucks

This is one serious amp. All the comments about missing a crispiness to the sound, sounding a tad laid back, forget about it now. Problem solved. It was all in the ipod. I really wish you could hear this and share your opinions on this one to check if my ears suck or if I'm really hearing something awesome (well, I am ). It's like removing curtains covering up the sound.

So...new pic:

[grawk]

To get bit perfect output on the mac:

In the application "Audio MIDI Settings" which is in the Applications->Utilities directory, plug in your optical cable, set the output to digital output, and set the bit rate of the digital output to the rate of the files you're going to be playing. Then launch your playback application. That's all there is to it.

You also have the option of letting itunes do the upsampling, which it does a pretty good job at doing. In that case, just set the sample rate in Audio MIDI Settings to the rate of your choice (probably 96/24). Then launch the playback application.

If you launch the application before changing the settings, you get much worse results.

[grawk]

mr fancy pants.

one correction, the 24/96 setting in Audio MIDI Settings isn't just for iTunes, it's system wide through Core Audio.

Mr. Reading Comprehension, I never said it was just for itunes. But if you do what I said, it will have iTunes actually do the upsampling when it's playing back.

[Contrastique]

Ah thanx!

My brother got me confused when saying that the soundcard would still interfer with the sound. But it's all clear again!

[grawk]

That doesn't follow my understanding of things. iTunes has it's own sample rate converter that is separate from core audio. Or more specifically, iTunes uses core audio, but it doesn't use the system settings at any given point, it calls the libraries to set bitrate on startup, and if you change settings after the fact, then you'll get itunes resampling followed by default sample rate conversion which can be worse.

http://lists.apple.com/archives/coreaudio-api/2008/Jan/msg00273.html

[grawk]

It USES core-audio, but it does it's own function calls to core-audio in order to use the highest quality settings. By default, the system uses lower quality, lower impact settings in the sample rate conversion.

[Dusty Chalk]

Wouldn't playing a DTS track via digital out, and inputting it into a processor to see if it decodes properly be a good test as well, doesn't DTS require bit-perfection to work?

[Elephas]

I really wish you could hear this and share your opinions on this one to check if my ears suck or if I'm really hearing something awesome (well, I am ).

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, if you think it sounds awesome, it is awesome. Well... until you hear something better that's even more awesome.

A MacBook Pro and a DAC that works well with optical should sound good. I have a regular MacBook and use either its optical out with a DAC or the Pico's USB DAC.

[Contrastique]

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, if you think it sounds awesome, it is awesome. Well... until you hear something better that's even more awesome.

Shhhtttt, my wallet feels safe again now so let's not wake any sleeping dogs, shall we

A MacBook Pro and a DAC that works well with optical should sound good. I have a regular MacBook and use either its optical out with a DAC or the Pico's USB DAC.

Well, that's good to know. My brother still keeps insisting that the internal soundcard of the MBP will have its not so beneficial affect on the sound even if you use optical out, so I'm not sure what to make of that (he's into audio, like studying, making and producing music but he's stubborn as hell).

I'm just gonna go with that and see what the difference in soundqual will be. It should sound the same as my CDP since it's connected via optical too and therefor uses the DAC in the amp, I guess..?

I will also first let the DAC get built into the Beta and later on go out for a hunt on a better DAC. Keeps it more interesting for the future as there remains something to do some research for

[Pars]

what he's saying could mean anything, and isn't really correct in several of the possibilities.

the signal isn't passing through the card's DACs. the signal is isolated from the electronics (optical after all), so you aren't going to get pops and ticks, etc. the signal is not effected by digital volume, by default, and the signal is bit perfect. the signal doesn't have any human noticeable jitter, as far as i can tell.

gouge his eyes out, that should learn him.

Any time there is SPDIF, there is jitter, and usually lots of it. Whether you can hear it or not is debatable, so we won't go there. Hook it up and see how close to matching the CDP->amp you get.

As for building a DAC into a B22, I personally wouldn't simply for flexibility reasons. You are going to want to have separate PSUs for the DAC anyhow, so the only cost you are realy saving would be the case. The times I have seen peeps do integrated stuff like this, they have always wound up ripping it apart. Case in point: Strohmie's CDP / Dynahi.

[Contrastique]

Why do you need a seperate PSU for the DAC when it's built in and uses the PSU from the amp? Sorry for my maybe dumb question...

And if you would happen to have problems with the build-in DAC you could also revert to an external one without trouble..?

(Ah yeah....enjoying first BBQ this year!!!!!)

[Pars]

Why do you need a seperate PSU for the DAC when it's built in and uses the PSU from the amp?

<snip>

(Ah yeah....enjoying first BBQ this year!!!!!)

Noise. You don't want to put digital electronics (like a DAC) on an analog amp's PSU(s). The B22 will be running on +/-30Vdc... the DAC is going to need +/-15V probably, as well as +5Vdc I would guess. You could do it, but IMHO it's a bad idea.

The Pedja Rogic DAC I'm building uses 7 or 8 PSUs in it (transformer has that many sets of windings). A bit overkill, but they are there for that reason... noise.

[Contrastique]

Hmm okay, didn't know that...poeh...

So an external DAC would not be so much more expensive than a built-in one (when thinking about a Stello DA220 $1200 or something) ?

I will have to calculate soon what a Beta is gonna cost me (aprox) to see how much I've got to save up so that means figuring out soon what exactly needs to be in that thingy, with the help of you ofcourse .

I've made one deal with my bf and that is I can buy anything I want but I have to save the double amount of what I'm about to spend....I already regret that deal I think .... nAh it's for the better uhuhm.

[Elephas]

Saving double the amount you spend is a good idea.

An external DAC usually means any unit that accepts a digital signal. The signal could be wireless, optical, FireWire 1394, AES/EBU, etc. Almost all have a set of RCA analog outputs to connect to your pre-amp or integrated amp, and some also have XLR balanced outputs.

A built-in DAC usually means something like a USB DAC, such as the one built-in to the Pico. The MacBook Pro also has a built-in DAC, as does a computer sound card or an iPod. Anything that plays digital files has a built-in DAC, which is necessary to convert the digital files to analog. Most people use external DAC's, despite the additional cost and complication, because they sound better than the built-in DACs.

I'm using the MacBook's built-in DAC and headphone amp when I plug headphones into its headphone output. It sounds decent, somewhat similar to an iPod, but not very good. I prefer plugging in an optical cable (into the same headphone output, which changes to an optical output) and adding an external DAC and headphone amp in the chain. This requires two extra pieces of equipment and cables, which can be cumbersome. This is why a Pico with USB DAC is so convenient with a laptop. Just one small box and one USB cable is required.

I'm Team Source First, but I don't think you need to spend a lot on a DAC at this point. A Stello DA220 might be a bit overkill (Gah, I hope my Team membership isn't revoked!). A used Lavry DA10 or Benchmark DAC1 would work very well. Something in the $500 to $600 range might also do the job.

In addition to a laptop's optical output, you can also use the external DAC with an AirPort Express and move them around as required.

[Pars]

Hmm okay, didn't know that...poeh...

So an external DAC would not be so much more expensive than a built-in one (when thinking about a Stello DA220 $1200 or something) ?

I will have to calculate soon what a Beta is gonna cost me (aprox) to see how much I've got to save up so that means figuring out soon what exactly needs to be in that thingy, with the help of you ofcourse .

I've made one deal with my bf and that is I can buy anything I want but I have to save the double amount of what I'm about to spend....I already regret that deal I think .... nAh it's for the better uhuhm.

Well, that depends alot on what you used for the built in DAC. If your thoughts were to do something like an ALien DAC built in, then that is going to be pretty inexpensive, and that can either be USB powered or you could go ahead and power it via the amp PSU if you could get the right voltage (reliably).

I had assumed that you were intending on having a built-in DAC commensurate with the Beta22 level (but wasn't sure what you had in mind). A DIY DAC? A commercial product?

[darkless]

A Stello DA220 might be a bit overkill (Gah, I hope my Team membership isn't revoked!). A used Lavry DA10 or Benchmark DAC1 would work very well. Something in the $500 to $600 range might also do the job.

Team Source First, we have a situation here!

[Contrastique]

Where do I start...First @ Elephas:

It does not need to be small and it is no problem if the setup eventually contains 2 components. I will be using this while working behind the computer and even though it's a laptop I always sit on the same spot.

What do you mean by Stello being overkill? Overkill for a computer as a source?

It's eventually meant to be my end-all-killer-setup (LOL ) so money is not that much of a problem (within reasonable terms).

@Pars:

I don't know what I'm looking for myself exactly to tell you the truth. This will be my first real step into "highend" so to speak.

I'm no diy-er so I will have to find someone who is willing to build all this for me.

The built-in DAC still appeals to me for a couple of reasons:

I don't immediately have to blow a lot of money on an external DAC.

I didn't really meant to put a DAC in the Beta which is on par with the Beta itself as I will be buying an external DAC in the future anyways.

Also, when I have that amp I can relax and go out on a search for a real good DAC and am able to compare it to what's in my Beta, figure out if that's the sound what I'm looking for or not. I noticed that a DAC makes a hell of a difference just recently so I would like to take my time for that and figure out what I exactly want.

Also, when I get an external DAC it would be absolutely no hassle and no loss in qual to attach it to the Beta even though it already has a DAC in it as I no longer use it right?

It's just to help me out on first sight and give me a longer time to figure out what to get as I don't really have to upportunity to listen to all these things where I live.

(sorry for the long story with all these double remarks...)

[cclragnarok]

For an end-all killer setup, I'm not sure the DA220 is good enough (I haven't ABed the DA220 against more expensive DACs, so don't trust what I say).

For something cheaper as a temporary solution, I would consider the CIAudio VDA-2 + VAC-1 combo. I has a different sound signature, but it's generally considered to be on a similar level of performance as the DA220. I have one, and I think it sounds pretty good.

IMHO, having a built-in DAC be the temporary solution is not a good idea. If you use a cheaper external DAC, at least you would be able to sell it when you upgrade.

[Pars]

<snip>

@Pars:

I don't know what I'm looking for myself exactly to tell you the truth. This will be my first real step into "highend" so to speak.

I'm no diy-er so I will have to find someone who is willing to build all this for me.

That is kind of key... what the builder is willing and comfortable using and putting into the B22 for you...

The built-in DAC still appeals to me for a couple of reasons:

I don't immediately have to blow a lot of money on an external DAC.

I didn't really meant to put a DAC in the Beta which is on par with the Beta itself as I will be buying an external DAC in the future anyways.

Also, when I have that amp I can relax and go out on a search for a real good DAC and am able to compare it to what's in my Beta, figure out if that's the sound what I'm looking for or not. I noticed that a DAC makes a hell of a difference just recently so I would like to take my time for that and figure out what I exactly want.

Also, when I get an external DAC it would be absolutely no hassle and no loss in qual to attach it to the Beta even though it already has a DAC in it as I no longer use it right?

It's just to help me out on first sight and give me a longer time to figure out what to get as I don't really have to upportunity to listen to all these things where I live.

(sorry for the long story with all these double remarks...)

One DAC that I would look at would be the new Twisted Pear Sabre DAC with some sort of discrete I/V. But I'm not sure what your budget is for the DAC...

As for using an external DAC, it shouldn't be a loss of quality as far as attaching it to the B22. The built-in DAC would be hardwired to the input switch I suppose? Pretty much the same thing for the external, plus a couple of RCA jacks and an interconnect cable. Depends on how much you believe in interconnects, etc. influencing sound.

[luvdunhill]

I think now is the time to contact a builder. There are a million ways to go about this. I'd do something like a Twisted Pear DAC and use the Otto to allow you to toggle between the internal DAC, and a second input which could be from an external DAC. I think this is pretty nifty myself. If you use the Twisted Pear Joshua Tree for an attenuator, you have a ready and willing power supply for the DAC. Or, use a second secondary on the trafo for the JT to power another small PSU. Again, I'd start "interviewing" builders, and choose one you can trust and let them run with it.

[deepak]

And you could also use the USB/I2S Metronome if you were going the Twisted Pear route. I'd like to hear the new Buffalo plus Metronome. Wonder how it would compare to my DAC.

[Contrastique]

Hmm, thought about it some more and discussed with my bf. If this works what I'm about to say I don't need to have a build-in DAC in the Beta:

My current amp has a DAC and has a "tape out" which is, if I get it correct, not an amplified signal. So I could use the DAC in the amp first and than start thinking about a dedicated external DAC....too complicated...no... ?

Contact a builder, yes, that would actually be quite handy now to figure out the exact configurations and then I would have an idea of what to save up for.