6moons review - Headroom Maxxed out Desktop

[Tyll Hertsens]

What! Not an invitation only forum anymore! What the fuck is going on around here!

You guys are completely disorganized!

I'm totally wasting my post count here. You guys let me know when you've figured out who the hell you are.

[Post]

LET FLY THE DOGS OF WAR! And get back to Head-fi Tyll, you're still a few short of 1500 there!

[Tyll Hertsens]

Geez! One little schmirky comment and the thread gets moved; I'm told to send a PM when info is public; and I get a bunch of hummina-hummina-hummina. Are there rules?

[devwild]

I think he was just trying to help keep your private info private.

edit, more info: http://www.head-case.org/index.php?topic=275.0

[Dusty Chalk]

Are there rules?

There is one rule: keep your privates private, private!

[Tyll Hertsens]

OK I'm being an ass. I was just seeing if I could raise some hackles. I wasn't pissed at all, just joking around, don't change the board's status for me. If it wasn't OK for the info to leak out I wouldn't have said it. A perfect example of the fact that lack of civility just for fun really doesn't work very well in the long run.

I have to say that I am concerned about this board creating divisiveness. I don't think it's a bad idea to have a board for the hard core, but I don't particularly like the feeling that the community is at risk of disolution to some extent. Did anyone try to resolve the problems with Head-Fi? I've said it before: Head-Fi needs some type of governing body that is able to legitimately deal with conflict.

[TheSloth]

I actually rather enjoyed the closed status of this board, allowing the kind of discussion that we've had about matters that couldn't be exposed in the same way 'over there'. Head-Fi seems to be undergoing an explosion of new members, most of whom know absolutely nothing and are not directed to search for answers to their questions before posting 27 threads about the same thing. On the technological side, there is also a growing tendecy of many of these new members to spread disinformation about all kinds of things - look at the 'HeadRoom questions from a newb. thread' which irritated the hell out of me, including someone who claims to be a new employee of HeadRoom posting technical nonsense, and having authority on the same lines as someone who says 'I'm Jewish so it's OK for me to be anti-semitic'.

What did it for me though was my stupidity in posting in the music forum in response to something which in the end I wound up being highly offended by - you can spend a lifetime working and studying these works, and learning what it truly takes to master them and be told by someone who listened to a Beethoven symphony a bit the other day that they are somehow in a position to argue with you. I suppose now I know how Rick feel when people like me say to him 'but the OPA627 sounds pretty good to me'.

Anyway, despite the constant swearing which really doesn't help anything, I'm enjoying things over here for now, but I do hope to be involved in any new structuring of Head-Fi. It does need a government, but it also needs some distinction between the level of members, and perhaps posting thread privileges etc. should be proportional to the length of membership, level of financial and post count contribution. Wow, that's off topic - lucky it's not Head-Fi.

[hirsch]

I have to say that I am concerned about this board creating divisiveness. I don't think it's a bad idea to have a board for the hard core, but I don't particularly like the feeling that the community is at risk of disolution to some extent. Did anyone try to resolve the problems with Head-Fi? I've said it before: Head-Fi needs some type of governing body that is able to legitimately deal with conflict.

Short version: The divisiveness is already there, and has been created by Head-Fi. This board IMO is not going to create more divisiveness, but may give those who feel disenfrachised from Head-Fi a place where they feel that they can post freely, without having to deal with hidden agendas on the part of the list owner or moderating team.

The long version can get seriously long. See the "Ruh roh" thread in "Off topic" for at least part of it.

[devwild]

How refreshing to have discussion and explanation over what was done.

[Tyll Hertsens]

it wasn't just your comment, it was the several concerned PMs that i received and posts by regular members and moderators that caused the thread to be moved and the forum to be made private again.

What a sweet bunch of guys! Thank you all for your caring.

it was also suggested, in the moderator board, that this thread be moved or made private in order to protect information that you had given.

I've often thought that the moderator board on Head-Fi might be improved in it's ability to function as government if it were open to all for viewing. But I've also always thought that the mods were well intentioned and really weren't hiding anything.

i decided to err on the side of caution,...you have to admit, though, your post was rather serious looking, what with the bold type and all.

I'm sorry. I didn't control my post very well. Thank you for reacting and trying to help me out.

[TheSloth]

This is actually almost on topic: Are you going to be replacing the modules in the amps that were just reviewed in Stereophile and enjoythemusic.com and sending them for re-evaluation while it's still fresh, or are you waiting a while for that?

[TheSloth]

Btw. Tyll, I hope you like my avatar...

[Tyll Hertsens]

Are you going to be replacing the modules in the amps that were just reviewed in Stereophile and enjoythemusic.com and sending them for re-evaluation while it's still fresh, or are you waiting a while for that?

I will, in fact; I let Wes Phillips keep the DeskTop he reviewed so that we could send him another and do a side by side. Other publications we're just going to move on to lobbying for other product reviews.

And, YES!, I like your avatar very much. I hope I get the chance to view it in person. I didn't tell you, but I spent some time surfing the web the other day for pix of mahogany model "D"s. There is certainly a sturdy look to the beasts, and boy I couldn't believe how ornate some of the 1800s instruments were.

[CD44hi]

Tyll,

congratulations on the review and also in the incomming Stereophile evaluations. I think this obviously gets your company some well deserved attention, but also it increases the general public awareness of the rather wide headphone field nowadays. As a disclaimer, I loved my old-school headroom portable, and also I owned a MOHR with stepped attn, which I also liked very much.

TheSloth,

That looks like a very expensive avatar . This is off topic, (and if you want to pm the answer, please do so) what is your favorite composer/piece... Enjoy the new tool!

[TheSloth]

TheSloth,

That looks like a very expensive avatar . This is off topic, (and if you want to pm the answer, please do so) what is your favorite composer/piece... Enjoy the new tool!

That damn thing costs more than the *bling* Maestro Aurum XLR. Though it was a steal compared with the $120,000 pieces of junk they sell today...

I managed to buy the thing out of savings, but in the end the Balanced Home saved the day (verging on on topic...), as I didn't factor in the cost of getting the thing into the aparment (veering away again..). Though my building used to have a farm on the roof with cows going up and down in the elevator (seriously), the damn thing didn't fit, so they had to carry it up 11 flights of stairs! Aparently they do it all the time in NY, but it's still slightly frightening to see 10 guys literally running up the stairs attached to a 1 tonne piano...

[Voltron]

Actually, there was just room for that many connections and we have VERY long range planes to make things that stack (think FM tuner and Hard drive player, but long range--years.

Hey Tyll-

I proposed a question for the manufacturer panel at the Head-Fi Nat'l wondering if you guys would ever consider making a simple 2-ch speaker amp in your chasis. What do you think about that idea for the desktop market? It sure would be sweet given the pre-amp function, all those unused power connections on my DPS, and the lovely form factor of your new box design. I broke down the other day and bought some powered monitors (pumping some sweet Television tunes at me while I type) and that is a good solution but I want a GREAT solution. Any thoughts on that for your long-range planning horizon? I kinda like the other ideas above, too, BTW.

Cheers,

Volt

[Tyll Hertsens]

Shit! Great question, I almost forgot about the speakers thing. First, these are the most kick ass desktop speakers you could possibly imagine. They're not really desktop speakers, but they're small enough and sound UNBELIEVABLE! We have thought about a Desktop Power Amp. It's definately on the list of things to do.... or I should say have to do. We are exploring ideas, however, that make it a potentially long and difficult discussion to get to the finished product. I can't say what that is other than it would cause the amp not to be in the Desktop enclosure at all. We are considering class "D" amplification and have one of the class "D" chip developement kits in house and are playing around with it. Joe is driving the Mission speakers in his office and the crappy little developement kit sounds surprisingly good.

We have already evaluated a number of self powered speakers and will be adding that category of product to our web site at some point in the not too distant future. The Blue Sky Media Desk for example sounds bitchen.

FYI the panel at the National Meet will be headphone designers only, so I won't be on it.

[Voltron]

Shit! Great question, I almost forgot about the speakers thing. First, these are the most kick ass desktop speakers you could possibly imagine. They're not really desktop speakers, but they're small enough and sound UNBELIEVABLE! We have thought about a Desktop Power Amp. It's definately on the list of things to do.... or I should say have to do. We are exploring ideas, however, that make it a potentially long and difficult discussion to get to the finished product. I can't say what that is other than it would cause the amp not to be in the Desktop enclosure at all. We are considering class "D" amplification and have one of the class "D" chip developement kits in house and are playing around with it. Joe is driving the Mission speakers in his office and the crappy little developement kit sounds surprisingly good.

We have already evaluated a number of self powered speakers and will be adding that category of product to our web site at some point in the not too distant future. The Blue Sky Media Desk for example sounds bitchen.

FYI the panel at the National Meet will be headphone designers only, so I won't be on it.

Those Amphions look pretty cool, and are similar to what I was looking at before breaking down and going powered. The Blue Sky set was one I looked at, but I liked the ones I got better. They do sound pretty great out of the Desktop w/home amp/dac.

Funny, another one of my questions for the panel of people who aren't you inquired whether anyone was planning to make class D headphone amps.

[Dusty Chalk]

If you can't fit in the enclosure, how about mini monoblocks? I mean, you already have the power source...and I really like the idea of a "class D" power amp -- the Sonic T-Amp is already the thing to beat, if you could just ramp up something like that without getting out of control, like the Super T-Amp, that'd be awesome.

Oh, and would it be ridiculous to have a "class D" amp without an analog input? I would think that a digital input would translate pretty easily to the necessary signal.

Just thinkin' out loud (which I liken to eating with one's mouth open), so feel free to disregard.

[TheSloth]

Sorry to be boring, but just because one can make a product doesn't mean one should. I honestly can't really see the need for a HeadRoom branded speaker amplifier in the desktop enclosure. The core business has diversified significantly even since 2 years ago, with the introduction of the digital components, and another electronics module in the line to make a 4 tier system, as well as a tube amp (to be followed by more tube amps by the sound of it). I'm not sure an audio company can be all things to all men, and to me HeadRoom is a hard-core headphone amplifier company, and that's what I and I guess many of their customers like about them. I think only in the last few years some serious competition has developed for absolute sound quality in the amplifier market, and it's important to be continually striving to improve the module and main board designs, as well as continued work on crossfeed which although great could be even better. I believe you only have 20 or so employees, some of whom will have nothing to do with designing the amps themselves. That doesn't leave very many man-hours to spread around, and my assumption is that the more products there are, the less thought can possibly go into each one.

Stuff I'd like to see instead: I'd also like to see stepped attenuators with more than 24 positions on them. I also think that the Desktop Portable needs a 21st century power solution. The red brick goes back to day 1 of HeadRoom doesn't it? That power solution is a big turn off to many customers considering that amplifier, and the fact that it uses a DC-DC converter hurts sound quality as well - with a proper power solution, this amp really would be the top portable. Regarding that absolute SQ, it seems that some of your design options are limited by your modules. Looking at them, it seems that you could mount components on both sides of the board, and have the boards vertically mounted in all amplifiers - there's ample space for components on either side in all of your amps if mounted that way. Once you are mounting on edge for all amps, you can then have multi-module amps. Micro or Desktop module in the Micro? How about both, with a little switch on the front to switch between the two. I'm also curious about your response to the amps that now employ a 3 channel circuit topology. I don't really understand enough about amplifier design to understand whether the HeadRoom amps achieve the same result through a different means, but if they don't, how about a top of the line single ended amp with 3 PSU's and 3 electronics channels? For your absolute top of the line, your Balanced Max, you have the excellent design of 4 power supplies for 4 modules, each one responsible for one channel. Except what happens when you put in a DAC? I don't know exactly how your impliment it, PSU wise, but it's running off the same supplies somewhere down the line. You have ample room for it in the case, so how about 5 PSU's if the DAC is included. (Or even 6 PSU's, with one for each DAC channel. Or to be totally crazy, as it's balanced, 8 PSU's!) Add $? to the price of the DAC upgrade to include the extra PSU('s) and you have a pretty state of the art Amp/DAC combo.

Finally, something that's actually practical, and on topic: On your Desktop Amp order page, you state the importance of the Desktop Power Supply, and the current copy is very confusing as to whether it's necessary or not. Firstly, that needs to be cleared up, including the current copy, but adding a 'Will it work at all?' table to show what combinations will function with the wall-wart. Having done that, it seems a little strange to order the amp with a power supply, and then go to another page to buy another necessary power supply. Surely the Desktop Power Supply should be one of the power supply options on the order page for the amplifier itself. It also clarifies the need for such a device, and may sell a few more too.

[TheSloth]

Oops, replied instead of edited...

[elnero]

Sorry to be boring, but just because one can make a product doesn't mean one should...

It doesn't mean they shouldn't either. I'd rather see a small class D power amp like Dusty Chalk suggested moreso than most of the things you list. I'm not saying Headroom should do one I'm just saying from a personal perspective it's something I'd be more interested in than your suggestions.

[TheSloth]

It doesn't mean they shouldn't either. I'd rather see a small class D power amp like Dusty Chalk suggested moreso than most of the things you list. I'm not saying Headroom should do one I'm just saying from a personal perspective it's something I'd be more interested in than your suggestions.

Which suggests to me that you are not part of their core market. I don't mean that in a rude way, it's just that if the things on the list are of no interest to you, then you are looking for them to enter a different market in which you would hold more interest. The gist of what I was saying was that it's difficult to expand without compromising your core market.

I don't know what amps you use, but are any of the made by HeadRoom?

[elnero]

Which suggests to me that you are not part of their core market. I don't mean that in a rude way, it's just that if the things on the list are of no interest to you, then you are looking for them to enter a different market in which you would hold more interest. The gist of what I was saying was that it's difficult to expand without compromising your core market.

I don't know what amps you use, but are any of the made by HeadRoom?

No I don't use Headroom amps but that's not to say I wouldn't try or use them so I don't think whether I use or don't use them at this point in time has all that has much bearing on it.

[Voltron]

Which suggests to me that you are not part of their core market. I don't mean that in a rude way, it's just that if the things on the list are of no interest to you, then you are looking for them to enter a different market in which you would hold more interest. The gist of what I was saying was that it's difficult to expand without compromising your core market.

I don't know what amps you use, but are any of the made by HeadRoom?

I am pretty sure I am in Headroom's core market given that I own 5 headphone amplifiers, one of which is a Desktop w/DPS. Still, I am an attorney and cannot sit for hours during the work day with headphones on. In addition, the Desktop has a DAC and a preamp function, which kinda screams DESKTOP AUDIO SOLUTION rather than just A PLACE TO PLUG IN HEADPHONES. I have spent the last couple of months trying to figure out whether to run the line out of my beautiful Desktop into another company's power amp, or use a receiver, or use powered speakers, or, or, or,... If Headroom had had an amplifier I could buy, then I would have bought it to take advantage of those emply plugs on the back of the DPS and to keep a nice uniform stack. It is also worth noting that Meier Audio makes small monoblock amplifiers and I considered using my Prehead with those instead of getting the Desktop. The Prehead doesn't have a DAC, though, so I was back to a decision of which other DAC to use, etc.

I don't want Headroom to try to do all things for all people, but I have to say that a 2-ch amp for the Desktop line seems like one of the more obvious extensions out of all those discussed in this thread.